I could not resist and looked up Paul Lefevre (see the following link):
In the second paragraph, he writes, “leaving school”. He should have written “leaving university” if he was an engineer.
So based on that article, I agree that at least Paul Lefevre gives himself a higher title than he, in reality, deserves. However, when reading the whole article, he is an excellent developer.
I think it is rather Xojo Inc. who claims them to be engineers than the team members. Ricardo Cruz, also does a lot of good work as Xavier Mendez. Both are very experienced, knowledgeable, and motivated.
and that’s the whole point. Alright, I have a degree in medicine and began programming in my early childhood. I had to program for my doctorate, and then I worked as a developer for ERP systems. Now, I have two companies where I not only develop but also sell business software.
Though I have extensive experience in programming, I would never consider calling myself an engineer in real life. Instead, I prefer to be known as a programmer, consultant, or, ideally, a developer because I naively hope the latter implies that I can use not only a keyboard but also my brain.
To me, titles are just smoke and mirrors; they don’t make anyone better or smarter. However, I must admit that my colleagues who call this Xojo thing a “title abuse” have a point. I used to think it was just an American issue until I learned that Texas, has very clear rules on the matter, quite similar to the European ones.
Personally, I find the title “engineer” to be somewhat odd in the software development field (ranking just below “evangelist”), but that’s a different story. What I’m saying is that I know enough engineers who work in the software industry but don’t peddle that title and we’re talking about booths a tad bigger than the green company.
When a few customers considered to switch from Java to C# I started immediately to get the needed knowledge and found out: not the right way if you have also Linux and MacOS Customers. So…
I don’t really understand the fuss about all this engineer-or-not debate. It’s the job title their company chose to assign to that job, regardless of the people’s educational background. It’s not attached to the person like for example Dr. med., it’s attached to their job. Their company could label Paul’s job “Architect” and it doesn’t mean he has to have a degree in architecture.
The use of certain professional titles is subject to relevant legislation. In this country, practising medicine without a doctorate is allowed, but it is not permissible to present employees as physicians on a website if they are not, regardless of whether they use a stethoscope in their job or not.
This rule applies to other professions as well, such as hairdressers, bakers, architects, engineers, and many others. However, the situation becomes unclear for titles like “IT architect,” as it is not a protected profession or term. In any case, using the title “engineer” without any artistic or ironic context is also not allowed.
Speaking of irony, it is not uncommon for professional chambers to lodge protests, so it would not be surprising if there have already been complaints against the use of the title “IT architect.”
I fully support “Xojo Doctor” as an alternative job title. After all, in the medical field, there are frequently remedies available for dealing with bugs
The title “engineer” isnt one you just get to use “just because it sounds nice”
In many jurisdictions in North America and Europe it is highly regulated who can and cannot use that title and what sort of duties they need to be performing to call themselves engineer
The company cant just bestow that title because it feels like it
THATS the crux here
They could use “Software Architect” - why ? because there IS no self regulating professional society of “Architects” like there is engineers (or lawyers or doctors)
Yes it seems nit picky but there are, in many jurisdictions, legal ramifications of calling oneself an “engineer”
EDIT: Here an MCSE CANNOT refer to themselves as an “engineer”
And a “software engineer” MUST be a member of the professional society for engineers - and TBH someone how holds a BSc, MSc, or PhD in Comp Sci CANNOT be a member
Hows that for ironic
A presentation given @XDC has been introduced to readers of TOF by referring to ‘Xojo engineers X and Y’. This alludes that X and Y actually hold an engineering degree.
Xojo’s marketing most likely has no idea what the title ‘engineer’ means and may mistake Xojo for a university. The haphazard way of use of the engineer’s title for another member of the development team gives us a hint.
It really doesn’t allude to anything. Here are some examples where companies are looking to fill a position they title with “engineer” but it’s not a requirement to hold an engineering degree. I can’t imagine they all are breaking the law. Really, as I said, that’s much ado about nothing here.
At times, certain facts can surpass our imagination.
Firstly, ignorance does not shield one from punishment. Secondly, in Germany, the term “engineer” is not protected as a foreign word, whereas “Dipl. Ing.” is, even depending on whether one holds a technical college degree (FH) or a university degree. In other countries, the German title for “engineer” will likely not be protected.
Unfortunately, I don’t have time for a more detailed response at the moment. I need to squeeze into my new police uniform. On Sundays, I always feel like working as a police officer.
In my experience and observation here in America, any random person neither knows nor cares what exactly the term “engineer” means, beyond some vague notion that the person has a role designing something. Within specific professions where there is licensing, it becomes important.
In IT, when I was in my formative years, people tended to reserve “software engineer” for someone writing firmware or otherwise involving making hardware function, or for a degreed person doing operating system-level work, but it has come more recently to be a synonym for “software developer” even though there is no universal / formal licensing or educational requirements for same.
I myself am an autodidact and have never had a degree or certification of any kind. I think it’s s distinction without a difference since whatever one learns in university is pretty useless ten years later and one’s current expertise is a product of constant learning anyway, even if only on the job. No one asks about your degree if you’re over 30 years old for this reason. In fact I was only asked about it twice by clients in my entire 40 years, and that was after already doing work for them for months or years, so the absence of a degree was actually impressive to them, since I had already proved I could deliver with excellence.
Currently I style myself as a “software solution architect” since my senior role has a large design component and the adjective “solution” distinguishes me from the more elevated role of a systems architect, which I do not lay claim to. I design and build specific solutions, not operating systems or enterprise-level systems. The furthest I go is to build a set of related applications or services that cooperate.
To the point of this sub-discussion about Xojo employees being termed “engineer”, it strikes me as a stretch to make a criticism of it. As others have suggested, it is just marketing people throwing a term around and trying to paint a picture of esteemed experts in white lab coats doing exacting work. I do not think anyone thinks that is literally the case, and if Xojo were delivering a well-tested / reliable platform, the only people who would even notice or care a little bit would be actual degreed / licensed engineering professionals, who would be bemused at the use of the term.
: weekend!
