COVID-19 Discussion

Yes - but they should have done like they did in Wuhan - NO ON LEAVES
But “Oh we have american citizens there we need to bring them home”.
Good christ NO !!! They may already be infectious.
Leave them there and make sure the infection stays put.
But … wtf do I know ? and then various countries that brought people home handled it in different ways and some even brought home people who then spread the infection.

But it seems that the infection had already spread at least enough before those people were brought home that making them stay wouldnt have had much impact
So now we all close everything where groups might get together to avoid overwhelming the health care systems - we’re just slowing the spread not stopping it.

We wont discuss the USA since they are lead by a guy who figured it was a hoax for so long, they screwed up the testing and still arent testing enough from what I can see. The response there has been slow and disorganized.

I hate to say it BUT China seems to be a better global leader at this time than the USA

I’m fascinated by how the USA will fare with this epidemic having a largely private healthcare system. I know many people in the States who have very strong feelings about socialised healthcare (like we have here in the UK, much of Europe and I think Canada) but I can’t help but think that it is in times like this that free healthcare for all will reign supreme. I have no fear about seeking help for myself if I am very sick from a hospital, regardless of whether or not I may have lost my income because of the outbreak. Compare that to an average person in the US without healthcare insurance.

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I’m not fascinated, I’m horrified. That is such a feudal mind set in the USA, basically a more modern version of slavery … ironic considering slaves were often better looked after than American workers as slaves were an “investment” …

I just hope the general population starts to wake up to what a good thing ObamaCare actually is before it’s too late.

OMG socialism !!!
seems to be the rallying cry against it

But then public schools should be all privatized (thats a VERY socialist idea)
Public roads should not be built (thats “socialist” in that its for the common good)
and so many other things

DIdnt the Constitution say something like

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Would seem “the general welfare” could be social medicine and other things that benefit the common good

:man_shrugging:

Things are tightening up here in the UK. Over 70s are essentially being told to isolate themselves indefinitely. JCB and Rolls Royce are going to star mass producing ventilators. My local hospital is stopping all elective work and cancelling outpatient appointments. I have friends at the local hospital (I used to work there myself). I’m being told they have a maximum capacity to ventilate 70 patients simultaneously. It serves a population of 400,000

A lack of ventilators for the expected influx of patients who will really need one seems to be the real big concern just about everywhere

Here in Canada, specifically Alberta, they havent cancelled elective surgeries yet, as far as I know, but they have shut down schools, universities and all events of 250 or more
We have 56 cases here out of a population of 3 million in the province - so we’ll see how far & wide this goes
I know a lot of people are hoping that they can stem the huge spike in cases with these measures

Me - my nearest neighbour is some 500 meters and we rarely ever even see them much less get closer than that :slight_smile:
“Hermit” has some advantages

I keep reading “80% of cases will be a mild, flu like illness” - that is complete nonsense.

80% of cases are those that do not require hospitalisation, eg breathing support.

But those 80% are by no means “a mild flu” but cover everything from a mild flu to pneumonia - which is much worse than a full blown flu.

Could maybe someone clarify these false statements at https://forum.xojo.com/58900-is-xojo-connect-still-happening-as-scheduled/140#p479305

Thanks

the cdc and others have NO warning about using ibuprofen specifically related to covid-19

they do in general warn about overusing nsaid and the effect that can have esp with respect to liver and such but …

Folks still seem bent on ignoring what many experts agree on and publish because “OMG 4 doctors disagreed with that suggestion so it must be wrong !” (the article cites a handful of doctors that disagree)
The CDC and NHS both said “there is no evidence that it will cause complications”
No more no less

But … :man_shrugging:

EDIT : Heck they even said that their disagreement is NOT based on studies or actual evidence :slight_smile:

Little said this could be because inflammation is part of the body’s natural response to infection. “If you’re suppressing that natural response, you’re likely inhibiting your body’s ability to fight off infection,” he said.
The evidence in this area was “not 100% clear” and had not come directly from studies of patients with Covid-19, Little said. “I personally think that given there is plausible evidence for harm, the advice should be changed.

Infectious bacteria usually grow best at 37 degree Celsius, the normal temperature of the body. They grow worse at other temperatures.

Our immune system works best at temperatures over 37 degree Celsius. However over 40 degrees things start to become really dangerous (proteins usually denaturate - are inactivated like egg-white in a pan - at 42 degrees).

That is why you get fever - it’s the body’s response to an infection.

With viruses it is the human body itself that produces the virus, but the increase in temperature can still affect the replication of the virus as the virus often brings in instructions for some of his own enzymes (like Reverse Transcriptase for RNA Viruses) that work best at 37 degrees.

And the immune system still gets a boost from the fever.

Until the damage gets too great or you run out of Oooomph and die.

So in an infection the fever can break because the infection has been overcome … or because you can’t fight any longer.

I would stay away from medication that suppresses the immune response like the anti-inflammatory drugs.

It seems to hinder the replication of the virus, but is less effective in bad cases (eg the virus has already replicated massively). By slowing down the production of virus the immune system is able to clear the virus much faster (4 instead of 11 days) which should mean that a lot fewer bad cases develop. It remains to be seen if it affects the immunity to future infection.

Some good news
Will be interesting to see what effects, if any, the human trials in Seattle reveal

So the UK schools are now shut - most likely until after the summer break. 6 months home schooling my 5 and 8 year olds. Goodbye productivity…

My wife works at the local prison and IF they get a confirmed case on staff its very likely they will all be locked in along with the inmates and they will all be required to shelter in place IN the prison

So far nothing but its a very real possibility

Btw the news from Germany is that first tests of the new vaccine (yes, the one Trump wanted exclusively for the US but Germany refused to sell to him) should commence in early (northern!) summer, and with fast-tracking of the approval process a vaccine might be available by (northern!) autumn.

To all those asking what makes COVID-19 more dangerous than normal flu:

With normal flu about 70% of the population already have full or partial immunity (from the latest waves of the flu), which massively hinders transmission. In the end, perhaps 2-10% of the population will get sick (usually between 1 and 7 million people in Germany). The mortality rate for flu is about 0.1% of those who get sick (one in a thousand).

Consequently flu cannot overwhelm the health system, although a BAD flu with 3x the number of sick people can bring it close.

The swine flu “non epidemic” in 2018 (?) was a new type of flu virus that had the potential - like the coronavirus now - that there was no immunity in the population. All those who had some clue were VERY happy that it didn’t come to this - while conspiracy theorists said “it’s all just hype anyway”.

With the coronavirus now, we KNOW that there is no immunity in the population. It also spreads faster (it’s about twice as contagious as flu) and the mortality rate seems to be about 1% of ALL infected people (including those almost without symptoms), or 3% (South Korea, China) to 6.6% (Italy) of those who are seriously ill (the difference is in part due to the much older population in Italy, in part because Italy has predominantly been testing people with symptoms of a coronavirus infection, while South Korea has been testing basically everyone since the outbreak had become apparent. Consequently, South Korea has detected more asymptomatic, but positive cases of coronavirus than Italy, in particular among young people).

The mortality rate of the severely affected and especially of the elderly (over 60) is naturally higher, as with the flu.

That there is NO IMMUNITY (the herd immunity the UK government in a fit of madness tries to “create” by not doing anything) means that the case numbers will explode (to give you an idea of a geometric procession: put 1 cent on the first square of a chess set, and double that for each subsequent square, pretty much like Corona spreads. There isn’t enough money in the World to get to square 64). If you do not want to decide who lives or dies as more critically ill patients are there than breathing apparatuses, then you need to cut down transmission of the virus.

Btw “mild cases” covers everything from no symptoms to a full blown pneumonia (which is MUCH worse than a bad flu). Serious cases refers to the patient needing a hospital! So no, the 80% are not just like a “little flu”, there are seriously sick people included.

Here is how China (which is technically and technologically far superior to NZ) did get on top of it (you could watch the report in the video I posted further up):

In China, statistics show that almost 80% of infections occur at home - meaning someone is sick, stays home, and infects the rest of the family.

The conclusion of the Chinese: no isolation at home, no playing with the kids (who then have no symptoms and infect others at school etc.), no infection of the partner or the parents who then leave the house and infect others.

The Chinese have acted accordingly:

Temperature is measured everywhere: when leaving the house, when entering a house, when entering a bus/train station/etc.

Those who have a temperature come to special “fever clinics” (which were built next to the hospitals during the SARS epidemic in 2002 and then “mothballed”) with doctors and staff in protective clothing, not to the family doctor in order not to infect him/her and other patients.

In the “fever clinics”

  • the temperature is measured
  • asked about symptoms and how they could have been infected
  • a blood test (30 min) determines the number of white blood cells to test for bacterial pneumonia
  • quick flu test
  • if you don’t have either, a quick CT scan of the lungs is done (with portable CT scanners, 200 people per day per scanner)
  • if CT scan is positive: PCR test (Q-tip up into the nose), about 4 hours (in the Western World the Q-tips have to be send in, result after 55 hours at BEST. And yes, fifty-five)
  • Patients sit about 2 m apart while waiting
  • if the result takes longer, patients will be placed in quarantine hotels (NOT allowed to go home)

if positive: is it a mild (80%) or a severe course (20%)?

  • patients stay in sports halls on beds, nurses in protective clothing
  • with dancing: frees the lungs, who cannot stand up is probably a severe case (very simple but medically clever)
  • more serious cases go to hospital and receive special care

If you consider how well the Chinese take care of their people compared to the USA, then the mortality rate in the USA and the UK is probably going to be much higher than in China … especially considering the state and preparedness of the UK and the US.

For comparison: got a message from an acquaintance in the UK where the doctors and nurses despair at the government: their hospital has 70 breathing apparatuses. That hospital serves a population of 400,000.

Dang.

Yeah
Once we know more I guess we’ll find out
The “case” that has been reported says they have a confirmed case of it BUT if that were the case it must be reported to the provincial health agency - and this has not occurred nor can anyone find that a sample was actually done by the provincial lab.
So at this point its REALLY unclear whether this is truly a tested & confirmed case of just a doctors opinion based on a clinical diagnosis

We’re ALL waiting to find out for sure as this could affect some 400+ employees at the prison and all 700+ inmates. They could all be locked in.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment @MarkusWinter that this is a serious disease I do dispute some of your conclusions. Overall, I think the UK government is taking the correct steps at this moment in time.

Firstly, the complete lockdown in China “worked” in so far as it has seemingly stopped new cases. Only time will tell if this is sustained. The overwhelming scientific evidence is that it is almost certain that there will be a second (and third and fourth) wave of new cases in China now that liberty restrictions have been removed. This is for several reasons:

  1. More cases will be imported into the country once their borders are re-opened.
  2. There are 1.3 billion people in China. How certain are we that there really are no new cases? Access to any form of healthcare is limited in huge areas of the country. Almost certainly there actually are ongoing cases that are simply not being detected.

I’m a radiologist. Current evidence suggests that COVID-19 cannot be diagnosed with CT. It looks like one of many different types of pneumonia. In the sickest it appears as ARDS. The lungs can be minimally affected macroscopically but severely compromised functionally or they can look severely damaged and be functioning well.

Additionally, a “quick CT scan” underplays the risks and costs involved. If the patient truly has COVID-19 then they are exposing the radiographers and support staff to the disease. They will contaminate the scanner. If they didn’t have it before they were scanned, they may well catch it from the table. Reporting a CT scan of the chest takes time. It’s not like looking at a chest X-ray. Finally, there is a radiation risk to the patient. This should not be ignored and there is no way on Earth I would want a “quick CT scan” if I didn’t need one.

We shouldn’t put China up on a pedestal regarding their handling of the disease. There are many reports from people placed in lockdown about quite how serious / terrifying / life-destroying it was. For instance, here is a personal essay from a resident. This quote stands out:

Perhaps it is true that only China can build a hospital in 10 days, only China can mobilize so many people to devote themselves to the anti-epidemic agenda, only China can lock down a city with millions of people at lightning speed.

But people are not thinking critically. They do not understand that if we had human rights, democracy and freedom, we would have learned about what happened in Wuhan one month earlier. And the first whistleblower would not have died for nothing.

That was my quote and it is unfortunately true. That is why the UK has brought in draconian measures to suppress the virus. As Boris Johnson explained, simply shutting the schools can have a serious detrimental effect. Not only is it unlikely to significantly lower the number of new cases (as children get a milder form of the disease or are more likely to be asymptomatic - they will therefore shed less viral particles) but it will have serious implications on the ability for parents to work.

If you haven’t read the seminal paper that the UK government is using from Imperial College I highly recommend it (I know you love a good paper @npalardy): Read this. Sadly the author of this paper now has COVID-19.

https://twitter.com/neil_ferguson/status/1240171876695117824?s=20

On a lighter note, I recently watched Contagion. It is frightening close to what we are seeing now. I recommend it if you like a good horror movie!

Well the Governor of California, just put the entire state into 100% lockdown… Everyone stays in their homes unless performing an essential task (shopping, medical, or mission-critial jobs)…

Good thing I have Sling, Prime and Disney channel…

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yeah that seems to be the way to deal with this
China had no luck until they locked down the entire province Wuhan is in
Then infection rates started to drop
Hong Kong and Singapore did the lock down really early and mostly flattened their curves out but are seeing infection rates spike a bit as people return from outside the country
They just havent overwhelmed their medical system at this point so they may be in OK shape
Places that objected to China’s “draconian” measures are slowly realizing that its the only way to slow the spread and overall deaths they are seeing
Such fun