It is not perfect for beginners cause for them it is really complex. And it is really not possible to use it when you want to have native look and feel cause it brings it’s own look and feel for Java Swing and for Java FX so it looks Java and not MacOS or Windows or even IOS. Therefore if you need to have native look and feel under all circumstances Java is not the solution
That is simply not true. Xojo might not suit your usecase, I don’t know, it has several bugs and the loading time, performance and all can definetely be improved rapidly, but it works in professional environments very well most of the time.
I said it before. Our Project is about 300MB large, has over 500K LoC and it works in production like a charm. The development with its performance problems and needed workarounds is not very fun all the time, but it works.
Then simply Java isn’t the right choice as well. You are looking for the “Eierlegendewollmilchsau”. What really confuses me: you find Java has disadvantages (like Xojo has), are you also complaining about them in Java forums or is it just a personal thing to rant about Xojo all the time?
Look, everyone here in this particular Forum has it’s stories with the IDE and the Xojo Inc. We all want to make our business as easy as possible. But what you do is just not solution oriented, you just complain about things without taking a step back and overthink your very own desicions you made in the past.
@thorstenstueker, either you choose the right tech stack for you and your company right away (if there’s no ‘perfect’ then I recomment to stop ranting) or you start to fiddle out what you’re might doing wrong in your Xojo-App. If that is your way, you find a lot of friendly people here and in the official forum, which will be happy to help you.
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Read correct: I wrote that, if you need native look that Java is not the correct choice. If I need it, C++ is the Choice
I read it correct.
But hey, here you go. Write everything in C++, then you’ll have the native look and feel, a very stable language with a vast environment. You’ll be for sure not half as fast as you would be with Xojo, but that is the trade I guess. When Xojo doesn’t fit your expectations or requirements, then this is the next logical step.
You could also ask a Xojo engineer over the official Forum or the XojoProPlus membership about your performance/memory issues, but that is up to you.
And yes Lars, we stopped using Xojo. And yes, it was costing much money to rewrite the applications. What do you think why I am so angry?
And as you said, for performance tasks xojo is not the right choice. Fot what is it the right choice? For web it failed. For IOS? Sorry, simply not. For Desktop? please. C++ for Desktop is much faster, Glupn Java is for IOS and Android because of the simple Argument same code to platforms my mobile platform. vaadin is compared to xojo the masterpiece of Web programming. Java is a really nice language. So. But my customers wanted a Basic language from some reasons and so I has to build up with a basic language. And xojos promise is / was: Cross platform, high performance. And sorry: high performance tasks I would never program in NodeJS, I would always use the faster JAVA or C++.
I have done already. Guess what. No Answer. And no, I am not faster with xojo. Sorry, programming is always the same work. If I have to write Java Code or xojo. Writing code is always the same Job. There is no difference. Yes, with C++ I have to spend time for GC. And yes: I have to spend time for Cross platform stuffs especially File paths. But thats it. Not more not less.
I payd a long time for xojo and nothing changed. And the errors - look at the beginning of this thread - are still there. They have changed much stuff but not corrected many showstoppers. And that is - I am sorry - not what I am awaiting. But hey, if you are perfectly satusfied it is okay.
For me it is anyhow not important, if I have native looking apps. So we write A Material Design for our Swing as look and feel and thats it. Cross Platform? Runs after compiling on all of our customer machines from Windows to Mac and Linux. That is what I need. CROSS PLATFORM.
Man, this is getting old.
If you were forced by your customers to build on a Basic rooted language, then don’t blame the language if it doesn’t suit the other requirements apart from that it is a basic rooted language.
You simply made the wrong decision as you’ve chosen Xojo for your way to go.
As you self said: also previous version weren’t faster for your particular case. It was so to speak never able to fit your expectations.
That is not Xojo’s fault, it is yours.
You made the decisions. Xojo din’t force you to use it. And to be honest: if you put your trust in a tool, which is developed by tiny team and is super unknown in the developer-community, what did you expect? A hidden “Eierlegendewollmilchsau”? It has reasons why Xojo lives in a corner between hobbiists and small companies which from time to time grow out of Xojos shoes.
You don’t have to be a fan of Xojo, you don’t have to see its place in the market unless other people do. It has it’s usecases, clearly because there are developer out there using it. The rest is just your subjective opinion, filled with your anger.
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I never said something like that. I am just more calm and objective.
Fine, again, here you go. Use this, this sounds good for you, no need to keep ranting about the past tool you stopped to use. Unless it is constructive.
Okay, I’ve said what I want. I’ll leave this tread.
Good luck to you Thorsten.
First: I am friendly, be also friendly. Second: it is not. Not at all. Because xojo promises things they are not delivering. And that is something I can also not do. If I promise something and not delivering I have a huge problem. Not so xojo. If they would deliver what they promised I would shut up.
And no, it was not the wrong sdecision following to the promises of xojo, inc. They promised that it will work in near future and that the showstoppers will be corrected. They even promised that the 2019r3,2 showstoppers will be corrected. Nothing like this is happened.
It is a question of Service culture. And of customers accepting that their supplieer is promising but not delivering. In my oppinion it is not okay at all. That you can not compile MAC 64 Bit for example, relies on LLVM and was never corrected by xojo. So what. I was paying long time for Service and Bugfix and Updates and got: NOTHING.
So if you think that this was my wrong decision I will be out of this discussion cause if something is promised I will at least be able to listen to an excuse why it will not be delivered. Especially if I paid for the Service, Otherwise I wiuld not have Pro / Pro+ licenses.
And what you forget: it is not past use, I have products in the markets I have to do the maintenance. Sometimes it is affordable. So, I have to do this with Xojo because the Products Software is written in Xojo. That males me what>? Not a xojo user?
One last thing after reading your last reply.
If your message was similar formulated as your forum posts here and on the official forum, then I am not surprised that they didn’t answer.
Also: speaking with Geoff is very easy. I’ve done this over zoom in the last time. I.d.k. if and why you are ignored. If so, then perhaps think about the way you keep communicating. Here and in the official forum. Loads of users were bored or annoyed by your way to complain about things. This is just a friendly reminder.
As I said, step a bit back, calm down, look if your own code is the root cause of your problems (often it is (also in our cases)), and if it is not, try to get in touch with the Xojo-Staff in a friendly, calmly and positive way.
Works for us perfectly - even though we also had/have serious complains and issues with Xojo (Inc.).
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See, there we are different. I am not accepting if a supplier promises and is not delivering. But he, it is not my fault that it is so. And yes: many users where out of their comfort zone because I was ranting. But I was ranting because it had a foundation to rant. So, If you are happy with the Support…wunderfull. If Iam not: my problem. In German language we have a nice sentence: wash me but do not make me wet. This is not the way I am doing my Business and not the way I can accept because when my customers can not use the language like it is written by xojo it is not acceptable.
Second: yes, xou are right in questions of coding, first look if it is your code. In my examples it was not the code.It was the fact that xojo was not working like they documented it should. Big difference. And always I was building up workarounds, the last one with an own Java Plugin for the connection of JDBC connectors to xojo to get rid of the Database problems. All of this I liked to do.
But for me it is never a oneway-ticket. Both sodes have to work on it. That I have to write tons of plugins (I know Christians plugins but I needed further functionality and therefore I had to write byself) is okay, that I have to setup tons of stuffs also and that I have to bring out documentation to documentation errors is also okay.
But then from a moment on to deprecate the Web 1.0 / xojo 2019r3.2 was more than a showstopper. It was braking everything down. They where really not only changing the API, they also changed the commands, the syntax and much more and on top of this they where deprecating webstyles and MouseDown and changed it to button action without positioning.
So: do you really believe that, when y<ou wrote before the decision with them and they promised yes this functionality xojo will have and they stop it, you will be happy and accept if you use it hundrets of times in your Apps? Are you thinking that, if you have a few apps with more than 200 MB Sourcecode you will be happy.
On Top of it they stopped documentation of xojo 2019R3.2. Shortly after we had FDA Audit. Result: you have to switch with your product to the new xojo version. What do you think you will say after this? You ae in a not regulated market and for you all of this is nothing. But I have to fullfill the entire conditions of 13485, 60601 and many more. So at the end: from your view you are gitght to 100%. But I am from my view also.
I don’t like to rant. I would like to have the situation that they do it in a correct way. Even after speaking with Geoff it was not changing anything: promises but no delivering. So, now I am really out.
Wow, what a discussion running here 
Thorsten, let me tell you two things which I learned over the time. Not about or with Xojo, but in general about being an entrepreneur and developer.
FIRST: There are cultural differences between american people an german (and may be others). It is simply normal that you hear promises from american people. They simply want your money. Which is OK if you know that and act always with this in mind. So you go and make extensive tests with the stuff you are going to buy. EXTENSIVE. And if the test worked, you pay. If a german car is sold and the wheel cap is missing or crappy, everybody complains about that. If an american car is sold and the car is complete crap, you get shown the wonderful wheel cap by the sales people. That’s the way it is. And it is not going to change in the next time. On the other hand if you try to sell software to them, it is VERY had to convince them - simply because they are used NOT TO BELIEVE. So they invented the test drive. Cultural issue.
SECOND: What I learned from Caesar: “Divide et impera”. If you have code with hundreds of megabytes something is going wrong - or wild if you want. If you write software you will DIVIDE bigger chunks into smaller parts and define some very clean interfaces. Code of this size is not maintainable. It is hard to document. Did you have a look at the Workers?
So I have to disagree with your meanings here. We used Clarion and WinDev before we swapped to Xojo - and it was not better with those two. It was WORSE then Xojo is today. We developed several projects in Xojo now and everything worked fine. Of course problems, but all either worked around or solved by the people in this and the Xojo forum. Mac, Windows, Linux and iOS - all up and running.
I feel your deep frustration about the swamp you are in. And I must admit, I do not like languages which use brackets and semikolons. I like your customer who wanted a basic code. I would NEVER use Java because of the license policy of Oracle. You will see: your customer will pay the money to Oracle and not to your company. What about that?
And so on. I hope you stay healthy in those difficult times. I do not post very often, but your text touched something in me, because I experienced similar situations looong time ago. Thank you for being so emergent.
First: I know that this is the american culture but in this case it is really hundrets of meters above my border where I say that I can accept.
Second: you would speak trues but with Webservers and Xojo there is a small problem with divide. It is from some reasons a problem, one of the reasons is that xojo can not handle it. In Java I was dividing in hundrets of modules loaded when needed. With xojo not possible. Wrong decision to use xojo but it was only a bit my decision the rest the decision of my customer.
Third I am developing now with IntelliJIdea and I was before developing Java with Eclipse. None of this IDE Systems has problems like xojo! The Wysiwyg Design was always working, since 2005 Formdev JFormdesigner is my beloved Designer.
Maybe you don’t like Languages with Brackets and Semikola but…at the end… maybe it is better for me only to program in Languages using Semikolon at the end of a line. There are enough of them. I should stay there. Thanks for Reply.
You don’t need Oracle at all to develop in Java. Plenty of OpenJDK vendors out there, all free for commercial use.
AZUL OpenJDK we use as AZUL vendor. So I have an Open Source JDK and I am packing the Software for my customers. Nobody has to pay one cent to Oracle. I do not know how you can tell stuffs like this.
You will not regret having made the move away from Xojo. We did the move about 5 years ago and all new programs are now written in Java (and B4J as the RAD glue). It sometimes feels like a punishment now if one of our team has to fix something in an old Xojo project that not has been replaced yet. And the reason is simply because we have grown as programmers and want more, faster and, for the love of God, as little core bugs as possible!
The sluggish IDE and the many bugs I used to think of as ‘normal’ when we used Xojo, are not normal AT ALL (despite of what Xojo wants you to believe). Developing in a swift IDE, not having to worry about core bugs that may show up, is an enormous relief and a huge productivity boost. And that is the thing giants like Java, C++, etc can provide. (they do have the resources of course).
The biggest problem with Web, iOS and (I almost said soon but with Xojo it can still take years 
) Android is the lack of experience their developers have with real-world programming on those platforms I’m afraid and it shows. E.g. the serious design flaw in the event system in Web 2.0, first signs and complains already showing up on TOF. Not easily fixable. It has been often said on both forums: Xojo should’ve stayed with the thing they used to be great at: cross platform Desktop. Nowadays, they are mediocre at best on a wide range of platforms.
Those platforms they support feel more like a marketing buzz to cover as much of them as possible and I’m sure there is some market for that. Hey, we thought a decade ago this tool would solve all our problems too! I fully agree with Lars at this point: Xojo is a great ‘starting’ tool, but as one grows, one also can outgrow the need for Xojo. We start to understand the underlying mechanisms that Xojo tries to protect beginners/hobbyists from and because of our own experience, we see mistakes in it and often even know the solutions.
That is the thing with us programmers (and our curse), we never stop studying and learning new stuff and we want to create it. And sometimes, the tools we use just can’t follow so we move on to the next level tools.
I don’t regret having used Xojo in the past. It served us well when we were at a certain point in our personal development and in the stage our company was. I currently hate .NET and all the mastodon server stuff. But who says, one day our company (and myself) will demand we go big and we will embrace it…
Alwaysbusy
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JRE is not free for enterprise use - her I cite from an oracle forum:
The very simplest answer is that licensing is required if you are not using Java for the purpose of using it to run another Oracle product/technology. If you are using it for your own home-grown application running on a non-Oracle server (or running locally) then licensing is expected.
btw mySQL is also Oracle - and IF your customer has a license its no problem. In my oppion most developers under-estimate the force of the Oracle licenses introduced beginning 2020. For development everything is nice - but the enterprise customer will pay. Almost always.
And of course you may stay with the open source systems - but then you will not participate from the ongoing development of the “standard” Oracle JRE. And this is what at least my customers want and have on their systems. Using Java is a strategic decision which helps Oracle to keep their business system alive for the long term.
I have to admit that the conditions are not as bad as they could be - but I predict a steady movement of Oracle into the direction of getting all users into their bucket. As they did in the past. The future will show us.
Mick, I can not understand how people like you are thinking they are right and behaving right.
Take AZUL Java. NO License fee and FULL classpath exception for the OPENJDK. There IS no license fee. And the customers do not need to install a JRE. The Azul Java JRE is bundled by Jpackager with the native Software Package. Customers are NOT using any Oracle product where you have to pay License fee. We are packaging Java and not the oracle licensed JRE. Even without installing JRE and using only OPENJDK which customers can install you can use our Software without any problem.
As long as I use the Azul, Adoptopenjdk, IBM or AmazonOpenJDK there are no license fees because of the classpath exception.
It becomes different when using Oracle Java SE products. They are all time costing license fee.
It is comparable with the QT license and it’s classpath exception. Thousands of commercial developers rely on the classpath exception and paying not one Dollar for it. Legally.
Only for information: We NEVER use MySQL, I always use postgresql. Why shoult I use MYSQL???
And the Development of the Standard JRE is living in a different mannor. All Participants of OpenJDK are delivering their Sources also to Oracle. Oracle has the right to get them for the JRE. Therefore is the deal that the OpenJDK has also the maintenance which is needed. Look on the AZUL.com Website or look at IBM.com. So OpenJDK is participating on the Development
One Word to technical Standard: waiting for that what xojo delivers in reliability, quality and technical capabilities you will not really compare them with Java? Xojo needs Years to get to this point if they will ever.
Here you will find the informations where you say it is the other way around: https://www.azul.com/products/zulu-enterprise/jdk-comparison-matrix/
So I would be happy to get evidences for that what you declare. Here are my points you are saying it is different:
- OpenJDK has allowed commercial use without restrictions and it is allowed to use for free
- OpenJDK has the same code like Java SE and not like you say “only open Source”
- comparing to xojo there is one difference for example: OpenJDK and Java both are holding their compilers and runtimes platform independent running. xojo Compiler is open Source and xojo is not developing llvm byself. Therefore you cannot cimpile xojo on Linux for Mac or on Windows for MAC with 64 Bit. So: who is using the open Source Software not updating? Xojo.
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Exactly! All the big players have moved to OpenJDK (including Android Studio and IntelliJ IDEA and all the major Linux distributions like Fedora, Ubuntu, Red Hat,…) because it is virtually the same. There is no real technical difference between the two since the build process for the Oracle JDK is based on that of OpenJDK. The statement ‘…but then you will not participate from the ongoing development of the “standard” Oracle JRE…’ is simply untrue. Everyone smart enough has moved to OpenJDK a long time ago, and those who haven’t should be urged to do so.
The Oracle one used to be somewhat faster but nowadays OpenJDK often outperforms the Oracle JDK.
This is a non existing panic spread by those who do not use Java on a daily basis.