Xojo bug bash

[MarkusWinter]

@thorstenstueker

While you dicidid that I can’t tell people to use java.

Please don’t lie and put words in my mouth that I never said.

[MarkusWinter]

@Tim

While the bug count seems to be ever growing, the quality of the reports is insufferable. People post bug reports asking for framework changes because of problems they invented by writing bad code.

Another consequence of pushing Pros away and focusing on newbies …

[Torsten_B]

@thorstenstueker

And no: you may have enough time to use deep for every word you write here. That is different. I don’t have the minute. I have to lead a company. that’s what I need to do. I need to pay the bills at the end of the month. And beside that I know that I have to do that. And so I need to work. This small amount of time I can spend here is - that I see and recognize - possibly not needed

You and you alone decide where and on what you spend your time. Such a choice is respectable and nothing someone should complain about.

[thorstenstueker]

deleted, don’t want to fight and don’t want to have useless discussions.

[thorstenstueker]

looking on many of the reports I saw that also Code related Bugs got reported by older pro users. I think the problem is somewhere between. People developing Software not all professional Developers.

[samRowlands]

Meanwhile, as someone who spends a lot of time trying to assist Xojo’s customers in shipping their apps, the things Xojo does wrong, which cause these customers problems (and stress) simply get ignored. Not to worry, as they only affect a “small number of developers”, so they can be safely ignored.

[bgrommes]

Part of dealing with bug reports is requesting missing information or rejecting outright incoherent requests. So we should not be seeing bug reports of “insufferable” quality; they should be rejected as such, if that’s the case.

I remember a lot of bug reports at other companies where many bugs were closed with the explanation being some variation on “this is by design” (of course one has to be careful to say things like that honestly and not flippantly). So inflated bug counts due to low quality reports is no excuse.

[npalardy]

@Tim

After today’s experience, I’m not as concerned as Norman is about the sheer number of bugs. I’m far more concerned about how little the Xojo staff members consider the changes they are making and the consequences.

The bug count is just one easy to track metric
I think it illustrative of at least “there is a problem”
Anything more … less sure

BUT I agree that single bug reports that are based on bad code that then gets implemented can have a much more deleterious effect over time

[Torsten_B]

A good parameter is the number of reports with tags ‘bug’ AND ‘reproducible’. Here the erroneous and non-relevant reports are already filtered out.
Build the ratio of these with the additional tag ‘fixed’ divided by those without the additional tag ‘fixed’.
We also see a number of documentation ‘bugs’ that are tagged as such by Xojo. The delta between documentation and actual IDE implementation is not helping new developers understanding Xojo.

[Tim]

@Torsten_B

A good parameter is the number of reports with tags ‘bug’ AND ‘reproducible’. Here the erroneous and non-relevant reports are already filtered out.

My point was that this is not the case. Xojo is accepting poorly designed projects and code as bug reports. Every once in a while I chime in, but as it’s not financially sustainable for me to do so, I can’t spend all day pointing out the actual problems.

I’m not going to link specific cases because I don’t want to be mistaken as making personal attacks. This is the Xojo triage system that’s failing, I can’t (and don’t) blame the people struggling to understand the framework. Lately, between documentation failures, a lack of consistent direction, the absence of quality checks, and non-existent unit tests, it’s extremely hard to for their new target audience to discern what’s a Xojo problem and what’s not.

[Torsten_B]

@Tim

Every once in a while I chime in, but as it’s not financially sustainable for me to do so

As long as Xojo Inc does not invest in testers and continues to rely on volunteers, there won’t be any improvement.

[npalardy]

@Tim

This is the Xojo triage system that’s failing,

Fundamentally this is at least part of their problem and why “bug counts” are going up not down despite the bug bashes etc

I think its truer now than ever before since Stephane’s passing as they now only have QA single person reviewing bugs on submission

[bkeeney]

@npalardy

I think its truer now than ever before since Stephane’s passing as they now only have QA single person reviewing bugs on submission

But hey. Adequately staffed, no?

[npalardy]

Biting my tongue

[dalu]

@bkeeney

But hey. Adequately staffed, no?

what’s your point other than being cynical ?

[MarkusWinter]

@dalu

what’s your point other than being cynical ?

Do you really want an explanation? The point is fairly straight-forward, but my Dutch relatives don’t get irony / sarcasm / cynism - they are VERY literal people - so if you really don’t get it I’m happy to explain it to you.

[MarkusWinter]

@Tim

While the bug count seems to be ever growing, the quality of the reports is insufferable

The quality of answers is not much better - see the answers to display a PDF:

“That said, there is a very good pdf viewer written in pure JavaScript out there that I hear Firefox used in their browser.”

No name? No link?

Maybe poor quality is infectious?

P.S. … seems to be pdf.js

[Torsten_B]

@dalu

what’s your point other than being cynical ?

Cynicism is a rhetorical technique, used to underline the lack of faith in a person’s statement or actions.

Do you agree with the statement that ‘Xojo is adequately staffed’?

[thorstenstueker]

IT is a pdf js.

[chaywesley]

@bkeeney

I suppose there are other reasons that I guess are even worse: 3) The owner feels that there is no problem; 4). The owner does not see the problem. 5) The owner doesn’t care.

Or 6) The owner has hit the ceiling on how many resources he can micro-manage.