As I have posted previously - you certainly love the sound of your own voice. That first paragraph is frankly pathetic and if you wrote something like that to me I would take legal advice as you seem unhinged.
The latest releases of Xojo have been pretty decent and the next upcoming release is a biggie full of new features.
Take your issues elsewhere.
Hereâs my two pennies worthâŚ
Xojo is a business, a business is focused on making money, they have a large product covering multiple disciplines, and every part is fighting for limited resources.
The more they spread themselves the less time they will have to work on bugs.
Shouting at xojo will not get anyone anywhere.
I see six possible actions -
We all pay more for the product so they can add resources to speed up work
We ask them if they can put a price on each fix, so we can buy the fringe fixes to get them done sooner, as long as they take additional resources to complete them.
We are all programmers are we not?, build an open source language ourselves in our spare time, make it VB compatible and cross platform.
Complain and get nowhere
Complain and get nowhere , I know this is point 4 but I thought it was so important I would say it twice ! (Thank you rob and grant)
Do nothing
Hereâs my two pennies worthâŚ
Xojo is a business, a business is focused on making money, they have a large product covering multiple disciplines, and every part is fighting for limited resources.
At last, a meaningful contribution, thank you.
More folks chime in please, with more then just ad hominem and defeatist, abject surrender.
I never said my contribution was the only way or even ideal, as âPatheticâ as it may be, itâs still more than your perpetual complaining and getting nowhere. If you truly believe that there is no solution and the entire idea is doomed, then move on and ignore the thread, otherwise, start posting ideas of your own, if the posting I offered is too juvenile, fine⌠lets see what the adults can accomplish when their heads are all in the game and the whining stops. I wait eagerly to see what this group can come up with.
Dogpiling on the first person to suggest that some real solutions should be discussed is a well worn pastime of the chronically abused. For those who say that Xojo should âfire me as a customerâ, remember you are yelling âLong Live The Kingâ⌠in a refugee camp. Its cognitive dissonance bordering on Stockholm syndrome, and its far worse than the worse part of the document I posted.
Some possibilities to consider: (no matter how absurd they seem to some of you adults. CAUTION: many solutions will demand more than frequent complaints, highly partisan political bickering and meaningless in-group-combat.)
Paying more per licence.
Paying per fix.
Open source derivative works project (free may take too long, possibly crowdfunded or multiparty funded joint venture)
Social media campaigns.
Mass call-ins, forum/hangout/comment section storms.
Collectively and actively work to cut off all revenues, all in unison.
XDC mass boycott with active complaints to let them know why. Make our own XDC with free videos etc. Deny them that easy annual cash grab until they begin to actually work for our interests.
Withholding free community provided support on the original forum, to deny Xojo Inc. use of the free labor and make them actually have to support their gigantic bug base all by themselves. We only offer community support here. (your free labor allows Xojo Inc. to focus on its product features rather than having to be accountable to the bugs themselves)
Crowdfunding for Xojo for a specific bug only release series. Held in escrow and contingent on following customer specifications and meeting required milestones.
Push Xojo to open the IDE up and rely on third party developers to make the majority of new classes, allowing Xojo Inc. to focus on the language and targets quality control while leaving the features to the external devs with the profit motive, focus, skill and allow Xojo Inc. to reduce the engineering debt pressure.
Integrate Xojo store inside Xojo IDE with direct in app purchase and installation to allow for third party plugins (not exclusively, not with surcharges and for user user convenience only) to seamless integrate into the base language with a single click purchase, again to reduce the engineering debt pressure on Xojo. Xojo class/plugin store.
No further participation in Feedback (currently useless), establish our own bug database with open access, boycott the official one.
Regulatory and consumer protection complaints (variety of jurisdictions)
Refuse (collectively) to purchase any new Xojo licences that contain new features, demanding a bug/performance/cosmetic only release cycle for the next 12 months.
Any more broad brush strokes?
Noted, Thank you Xojo Inc.
Actually, I assume his name to be Dave, using his real name, as do I. This is more than I know about you. On that point, Markus nailed it in reminding you that things didnât end well for Spartacus. I suppose, however, that it beats something like xojo_custer. 
As to objecting to âad hominemsâ, Iâll respectfully suggest that, on that subject, you live in the proverbial glass house. Additionally, the critical comments which you are citing seem to be just the opposite. How can it be an âad hominemâ when your text is criticized, indicating that it was actually read? Note: I too have read it.
I canât resist making a comment about that bunch of JPEGs you gave us. First, while you couldnât upload a PDF to the site, you could have provided a link to one. Did you not have a place to host it, or would it have compromised your anonymity to do so? Second, I realize that no one here is likely to be using dialup (Iâm old enough to remember âdying and going to heavenâ when I got a 56k modem)âbut seriously, almost two megs for a page of black-on-white text? 
The main reason Iâm here at all is that I continue to see this thread on top every time I check in. There is a certain level of âcar crashâ curiosity in following it, but the horse was beaten to death long ago. I join the moderators in asking you to be civil, and consider your point made. Particularly, stop acting like youâre trying to strong-arm those in the group into joining.
I have said my piece. Now, it is time to move on to a more important discussion (under a new topic): baseball. Norm, how do you think the Cardinals are going to do next year?
Nothing you have said has debunked, disproved, conflicted with or otherwise addressed a single part of my argument, or any of the actual points that I raised. Nothing mentioned about the methods for obtaining remedy, or anything else relevant to what I actually had to say. Further, you have not offered even one single constructive comment in direct relation to the subject matter of your own. Not one idea as to how Xojo Inc. could be made to fix their product.
The only things you have offered are attacks on:
Markus nailed it in reminding you that things didnât end well for Spartacus
My choice of avatar, how productive⌠how about addressing the actual points now please.
As to objecting to âad hominemsâ, Iâll respectfully suggest that, on that subject, you live in the proverbial glass house.
My calling out of ad hominems, yet fail to cite any actual ad hominems, as I am doing for you right now. Your ENTIRE POST is one long and poorly written series of nothing but ad hominems, curious⌠did you actually do that on purpose for fun? Every single part of it fits with in the literal definition below:
ad ho¡mi¡nem
adjective
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
when your text is criticized, indicating that it was actually read? Note: I too have read it.
Citing my text has being wrong, and being subject to valid non ad hominem criticism, yet not actually citing the offending passage or the counter argument that was made against it. Sorry but âIts patheticâ and âUnhingedâ do not count as valid critique and cogent counterpoints.
I canât resist making a comment about that bunch of JPEGs you gave us. First, while you couldnât upload a PDF to the site, you could have provided a link to one. Did you not have a place to host it, or would it have compromised your anonymity to do so?
More attacks about my delivery methodologies, but not a refutation of the material itself. It could be placed on the site any number of ways, externally linked, or written on my ass cheek with magic marker and still none of those delivery systems make the points raised in the document itself invalid. Yet another attack against the messenger, not the message.
Second, I realize that no one here is likely to be using dialup (Iâm old enough to remember âdying and going to heavenâ when I got a 56k modem)âbut seriously, almost two megs for a page of black-on-white text?
File size, format? Not an argument, not even the veneer of one⌠try harder.
The main reason Iâm here at all is that I continue to see this thread on top every time I check in. There is a certain level of âcar crashâ curiosity in following it
So you actually admit you have brought nothing but noise and unrelated complaints to the table.
Perhaps that is a symptom that demands some introspection. Perhaps that when the political crap was eliminated, and just complaining about Xojo was off the menu, there was nothing left to discuss but this. That tells those that can listen that without a mission to focus the energy here, it wanders around aimlessly, or worse devolves into a in-fighting cesspit.
That is an indicator for INN users to start focusing on a meaningful mission involving fixing Xojo, or what is the actual point of showing up here anymore (besides the next chapter of Spartacusâs circular beating)
Particularly, stop acting like youâre trying to strong-arm those in the group into joining.
Strong arm the users here? Xojo, sure strong arming was about all that is left, but the sample of my postings do not reflect my attempting to strong arm the users here.
- âOut of respect for your timeâ
- âasking for your efforts and support. Its still incompleteâ
- âThis is simply the beginning stages of the planâ
- âIf you folks are ready to move forward then please see attached, read carefully and then offer any constructive comments, modifications, contributions and ideas you have.â
- âWe need to offer specifications, options, solutions and ultimatums not only complaints.â
- âThank you for your time and attentionâ
- âSo hopefully there are a few among us who still feel that incompetence or deliberate fraud should not be rewarded, and that everybody deserves a second chance to make good on their debts.â
- âI do thank you for your input, none the less.â
- âAll valid points to be sureâ
- âThis has certainly been a learning experience and I thank you all for some valuable lessons in human nature.â
- âWas the plan offered flawless?â
- âWell, at least you actually read it. I do thank you for not attacking it without due diligenceâ
- " I dont want to offend any of you, I want any of you to lead us into battle, and to win. I dont care who, or how. Just talking forever is pointless"
- âIf there is simply none to be found here. I understand - Good bye then, carry on.â
- " At last, a meaningful contribution, thank you."
- âMore folks chime in pleaseâ
- âNoted, Thank you Xojo Incâ
- âwe need to see if there is any actual unityâ
- âWe intend to use it build consensusâ
- " If you folks are ready to move forward then please see attached"
- " read carefully and then offer any constructive comments, modifications, contributions and ideas you have"
- " I myself (and a few others) eagerly look forward to working with any of you, be it Democrat, Republican, Communist, Black/White Nationalist, Anarchist, Loyalist, Hebrew, Christian or flamboyant homosexual."
- " This divide and conquer needs to end; **the mission objective is in sight and is ours for the taking-Thank you."
Now I did call out some people for being cowards, and I fully stand by that assertion as it is absolutely correct from my observation. My only regret was allowing myself to get heated enough to be profane, otherwise, when you snicker, snide, << 
>> at everything posted and attack absolutely everything but the actual argument or material itself, then you should expect to get the horns.
But again, I stand by that comment, if you have so much energy to make endless jabs at my (everything but the arguments) and then claim you dont have any time for real action, its laughably transparent.
You just prefer to take the easy action of complaining and lashing out at those who are calling out your apathy. There are names for those who get taken advantage of and are given a raw deal, yet defend their attacker, the term âcowardâ is still in the realm of civility, I could think of much worse.
Now at the risk of being rude, if you are not interested, find this ridiculous, are a Xojo Inc. fanboy, hate my writing style, think I am some unhinged lunatic or simply think I am wrong, but are too lazy or cowardly to add your own voice out of fear of professional retribution, or having to actually take a stand, then I understand.
In that case, please ignore this thread and let it die due to lack of interest⌠then this forum can return to its U.S. political mud-pit and Xojo commiseration duties.
As I said many times before, this forum (as related to Xojo) has but one purpose, that is to focus the people and energy needed to cause a change in the Xojo situation that also serves the customer, not just the business profits and its founders ego. How that happens, I dont care. I am absolutely method agnostic as long as it is actions directed at getting actual results. If what I said is wrong, offer your plan⌠I fully admit that you may have the winning strategy, lets hear it.
So again I ask, what Ideas can be added to this list to be discussed?
Paying more per licence.
Paying per fix.
Open source derivative works project (free may take too long, possibly crowdfunded or multiparty funded joint venture)
Social media campaigns.
Mass call-ins, forum/hangout/comment section storms.
Collectively and actively work to cut off all revenues, all in unison.
XDC mass boycott with active complaints to let them know why. Make our own XDC with free videos etc. Deny them that easy annual cash grab until they begin to actually work for our interests.
Withholding free community provided support on the original forum, to deny Xojo Inc. use of the free labor and make them actually have to support their gigantic bug base all by themselves. We only offer community support here.
(your free labor allows Xojo Inc. to focus on its product features rather than having to be accountable to the bugs themselves)
Crowdfunding for Xojo for a specific bug only release series. Held in escrow and contingent on following customer specifications and meeting required milestones.
Push Xojo to open the IDE up and rely on third party developers to make the majority of new classes, allowing Xojo Inc. to focus on the language and targets quality control while leaving the features to the external devs with the profit motive, focus, skill and allow Xojo Inc. to reduce the engineering debt pressure.
Integrate Xojo store inside Xojo IDE with direct in app purchase and installation to allow for third party plugins (not exclusively, not with surcharges and for user user convenience only) to seamless integrate into the base language with a single click purchase, again to reduce the engineering debt pressure on Xojo. Xojo class/plugin store.
No further participation in Feedback (currently useless), establish our own bug database with open access, boycott the official one.
Regulatory and consumer protection complaints (variety of jurisdictions)
Refuse (collectively) to purchase any new Xojo licences that contain new features, demanding a bug/performance/cosmetic only release cycle for the next 12 months.
Some random ideas for a better feedback system:
*older than 12 months
Those two points are motivation techniques backed up by research (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification).
Of course, you could do it terribly wrong, so the technique could lead to misuse - an effect the cartoon makes fun of.
Those two points are motivation techniques backed up by research (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification ).
Of course, you could do it terribly wrong, so the technique could lead to misuse - an effect the cartoon makes fun of.
I could not agree more with this, its proven valuable in many real world examples.
Not a good idea
I also agree that rewarding shitty behavior with stacks of cash is a recipe for more of the same in larger quantities.
However, there exists a possibility to crowdfund via escrow with funds only being released when they accomplish a milestone that we establish. Not meeting targets = funds return to the source.
If the bounty was right, they could be enticed to do the right thing.
Fix Feedback System:
No further participation in Feedback (currently useless), establish our own bug database with open access, boycott the official one.
Withholding free community provided support on the original forum, to deny Xojo Inc. use of the free labor and make them actually have to support their gigantic bug base all by themselves. We only offer community support here.
Bug database openly available on the internet through an internet browser.
Use off the shelf, commercial bug tracking system.
Points are used to rank the importance of a fix (assuming that the resources for fixing bugs are still limited)
Every registered user has an unlimited number of points but can only assign one point per bug/case.
New feature requests separated from bug fix points, new feature points and or system.
First 6 months a bug does not get fixed: The system automatically assigns 10 additional points each month to the bug/case.
âHall of shameâ: a prominent place on the site where old unfixed bugs are listed. (older than 12 months)
The engineer who fixes a bug âearnsâ the points assigned to that bug.
Customer workarounds also accumulates points to the person or persons who made the temporary workaround.
Each year the engineer who earned the most points will be rewarded with a nice present
Some application of gameification to promote bug hunting and fixing activity, bug bounties (sponsored perhaps by independent customer funds pools)
Motivation Via Starvation:
XDC mass boycott with active complaints to let them know why. Make our own XDC with free videos etc. Deny them that easy annual cash grab until they begin to actually work for our interests.
Boycott of purchasing any new releases that contain new features over fixes for a limited time (6-12 months)
Termination of all auto renewal, en mass.
Boycott of Xojo Cloud, transition to independent provider until Xojo changes their trajectory.
Motivation Via Bounties and Rewards:
Increased price licence tier for those who want to support the quality improvement initiative directly.
Crowdfund via escrow with funds only being released when they accomplish a milestone that we establish. Not meeting targets = funds return to the source.
Motivation Via Competition:
Quality Control Process:
Customer Acceptance Testing Board refusing any releases that dont meet specifications or QA tests.
Reduce Xojoâs Engineering Scope and Debt backlog:
6-12 Month moratorium on any new feature releases, only focusing on bug crushing and performance optimization during this time.
Temporary moratorium on mobile device targets until the IDE(all), Desktop and Web are of assured quality and performance.
Limiting the number of Linux distributions so that performance optimizations and cosmetic fixes can be made.
Third party developers formally used to take on some new feature and bug crushing responsibilities (but with customers demanding this formally)
Establish a new criteria for what constitutes a satisfactory fix / feature release (âPIE-Câ) specification.
Motivation Via Shame and Exposure:
Social media campaigns.
Social media influencers to reach large audiences.
Video demonstrations and presentations detailing the problems, and their longstanding unwillingness to fix them.
Mass complaint, comment, call-in, posting storms to all Xojo Inc. points of contact.
Regulatory assistance:
So farâŚ
Moar please, on any subject, new or edits, well written or incomplete fragments or anything else that would possibly be helpful.
And it should be noted that we already know a large number of existing an long term bugs that need to be fixed. Cash bounties can be limited to just those for a limited period of time.
I have a long history with REALbasic/Xojo. I wrote a spam reporting tool (SpamX), a plugin for REALbasic (Outllook Message Parser), and a Civil War computer game (Gettysburg) in REALbasic. All of the points that have been made are valid. God help you if you made them on the Xojo forum. Your post would be attacked, or removed, and you would be attacked personally. I got seriously scuffed by a few things that I lay at REALbasic/Xojoâs alter. I write things in such a way that I donât have to re-write them. Some object oriented, some functions that do one thing. I did this especially on my Gettysburg effort. I was going to revisit this on another Civil War game, and I bought the latest version of Xojo for the attempt. I think that I spent a total of $800 on the versions for mobile, and desktop support. When I opened the components of my old game virtually all of the code that I wrote to support my game engine was deprecated in some way, which meant that I had to change / test all of it, all over again. I was also directed by the Xojo âcrewâ to a slew of third party add-ons, some free, some paid to do what I just spent $800 to do. So I asked for, and received a refund for both licenses, and Iâve been spending my time learning Unity for my next game effort. I could write an angry rant about this, but I just asked for a refund, and moved on. Happy Holidays to all of my brother/sister programmers, and I hope that you can get whatever youâre looking for using whatever technology you choose.
How has Unity worked out for you? What language are you using with it?
Out of curiosity I googled it and found this press release by REALbasic back in 2004:
https://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/12/prweb186586.htm
I was around back then but donât recall seeing it.
-Karen
Wow⌠If previous customers are asking for a refund because of technical limitations and deprecations, how many are trying the demo, realizing the same thing, but donât even bother to relay that information to Xojo, simply download the demo of another tool and start converting.
If you would have an application under regulatory control and you would have to spend alone for the regulatory control of the Software more than 60000 bucks a refund is not helping. That would be peanuts in that case. Exactly that is the problem with their deprecations and promises of upcoming things. And this problem is a dangerous one for professional Software producers: loosing the Sourcecode written in a language is always producing an extreme time delay.
< xojo>You are wrong. There are almost no complains, that means everyone is happy with the tool. So the very few that complain are just trolls</ xojo>
Hear, hear!
