All valid points to be sure, but if you keep doing the same prostrations, we will keep getting the shaft. Numbers matter, but bitching about politics (without effect) seems to be a higher priority than organization, no wonder nothing ever gets resolved.
I would agree - but I have no idea how you expect to FORCE them to do anything
Except for NOT paying the the product until / unless it meets your needs there isnt a lot I think you can force them to do.
But have at it
Oh trust me I dont
Folks sufficiently pissed off can be VERY motivated
You have your opinion, they have theirs.
And you donāt seem to be able to distinguish between your opinion and āfactsā. You would have to establish fraud as deliberate and a fact, neither of which I think you can.
And ācowardā? Puh-leaze ā¦ 
But feel free to continue on what I would call āa foolās questā ā¦
And with that Iām out too ā¦
P.S. ā¦ and Spartacus did not lead a successful rebellion ā¦ and ended up crucified ā¦
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Many of us have tried and bitched and organized and gotten exactly nowhere with the company
In 2007 ARBP, The Association of Real Basic Professionals, was formed with the explicit goal of being an advisory group to REAL (now Xojo Inc) of the things that Professional Users needed and wanted
Real could not have cared less if the group banded together and ādemandedā anything
And so that became and pointless effort
Sone of us have gone around this wheel with REAL / Xojo
None are going to stand in your way, and weāll more than likely support your efforts, but having beaten our heads against the wall before weāre unlikely to assist
As I said before āHavre at it !ā
They do
To have an impact on their revenue youāll need to get probably 150 - 200 professional license holders ( probably $150K) to NOT renew or but a new license all at the same time. Or the equivalent in $ from whatever mix of Pro+, Pro, Desktop and lite license holders.
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āOne more thingā (as SJ used to say):
BH used to slag off Xojo really viciously (you are nowhere near his level) when he was fed up with it. But whenever he threw a tantrum (be it on VersionTracker, MacUpdate, Facebook, Twitter, or his own show) Xojo had a distinct uptick of new users.
It seems there REALLY is no such thing as bad PR ā¦
@xojo_spartacus
I donāt understand why you feel the need to tell them, again, how you are feeling, why they misled you, etc, etc. How many times will you bump your head against the wall. It is pointless.
If you were in the US and you want to file a complaint for false advertising (for claiming you can create MAC applications on Windows or Linux) you certainly would have a case; and you could approach the FTC website, and the BBB in Austin TX. Demanding some change because you think you are right and they are wrong goes nowhere, fast.
Wish you luck.
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This is not for them to approve or reject. This is going to be forced on them and their agreement and approval is not required, only their compliance.
I do not approve this message
I do not support this initiative and Iām out too. Whatever disagreements I have with Xojos decisions or its mismanagement, in the end they run their company how they want (even if it is running towards a cliff). We, the users, have nothing to āforce/demand/threatā upon someone else.
It is abondonly clear Xojo is not a company that is going/willing to grow and they are probably very happy they still can survive, although barely. But that is their decision and I can live with that. Xojo has been a company of āfriendsā building on some dream, missing the leadership and view to set out a clear plan and missed their momentum over a decade ago.
For me, it is clear they lack the expertise (especially in the mobile/web platforms) and it appears they learn-it -while-programming their frameworks. Someone with experience in programming for mobile/web doesnāt make such basic core mistakes . No stone thrown towards their engineers: they canāt be a specialist in everything, although because of the lack of resources they are forced to wear multiple hats. There just isnāt any other outcome possible than producing a mediocre product.
The simplest thing we can do for ourselves is just stop investing time and money in it and move on to something else. For me personally, Xojo is a dead language where I had some fond memories from, but have now outgrown this toy language (in the sense it is sometimes fun to play with, but donāt bet your business on it).
And the above manifest will/can not change anything about that.
Good luck
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Well Iāve manged to stay off this forum since its inception for reasons that I wonāt go into now but after reading the OPās post I just had to comment. My sincere thanks OP, your post brightened up my Monday, funniest thing Iāve read in a long timeā¦
My main reason for posting here is to make it publicly clear that Iām not in, nor would want to be in, the aforementioned āsmall groupā just in case someone thought I might be involved.
Free tip, so I actually provide something constructive to the discussion in line with the forum guidelines, if you are soliciting for comments on your manifesto, try posting the text somewhere and reference it (plenty of services out there to do that), pasting images doesnāt make it easy for others to quote and respond.
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welcome julian
Ok, the message could not be clearer and more resounding.
This has certainly been a learning experience and I thank you all for some valuable lessons in human nature. Many of you (not all) have clearly demonstrated that cowardice and apathy are not only the default position for most (at least here) but that it is also highly contagious.
Why do any of you even come here? I see the discord invitation to ācommiserateā about Xojo.
Commiserate : express or feel sympathy or pity; sympathize.
That should have been a major red flag to be honest. Survivors of the dead commiserate, slaves commiserate and the hopeless commiserate. We can find all of those in abundance here to be sure. So broken and hopeless are many of you itās truly pathetic.
You all here because Xojo Inc. has failed you, censored you and treated some of you worse than an enemy. Yet you have gone months without any action whatsoever. Even in the face of clear cracks starting to show in Xojo Inc. resolve, and them rushing to fix extremely old bugs out of public backlash.
Was the plan offered flawless? No, it was just a start, any start and much more than most of you could be bothered to take at all.
It did not matter if everything that was put fourth was completely wrong, if any of you had taken the time to offer constructive correction, it would have been worth the effort. At least somebody was trying to take some tiny step forward. It would have taken far less effort than the 309 replies to the Donald Trump character assassination thread, which accomplished a grand total of nothing whatsoever.
Several of you proudly proclaimed that you did not even read past the first paragraph. By the content of your responses I conclude that āseveralā might be too generous. I am willing to bet almost none, since none of you actually offered direct refutations or anything else beyond fatalism and ad hominem. What sort of mentality is presenting that they believe themselves to be correct while at the same time intentionally remain willfully ignorant of the subject matter?
No you felt the safety and security of jumping on yet another bandwagon and collectively whining about how immutable Xojo leadership is, and how foolish I am to even dare to suggest otherwise would be a better use of your seemingly precious Republican hating time.
Many of you claim that Xojo is a dead end tool and that it is not worth your attention, yet you continue to come here and even the official forum. Why? Does perpetually complaining as a large group fulfill the need to act, without needing to actually do so?
You came here because you wanted things to change, yet when actually pressed to even discuss the possibility of putting it on the line, you fold like a cheap lawn chair. You hate the state and trajectory of Xojo, but yet you vehemently defend its leadership against any accountability or call to action. Do you even realize what an enormous contradiction that is, its cognitive dissonance at its most extreme form.
You have now completely validated everything that Xojo leadership believes in about their actions, and have literally sealed the fate of the entire endeavor. The idea of ever getting any correction or concession (using this group) is now zero, and the value of this entire site has not only been squandered, but it has been reduced to a toxic cesspool of salty butt-hurt and despair.
Good work! Geoff could not be more proud or more vindicated.
Not all plans and actions necessarily occur in public 
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Iām frustrated with Xojo, too, but this manifesto is laughable. It has zero chance of effecting any change whatsoever. Over the years there have been dozens of Xojo/REALbasic users scream bloody murder and exit loudly in a huff (or stay in a seethe), and it has never once accomplished anything of significance. There wonāt be any great collective group of users sign on to this weird rant full of imperious demands and impotent quasi-legal bluster. Frankly, if I were Geoff, Iād probably just refund your money and fire you as a customer. (If I was feeling generous, that is; the cheaper option would be to just ignore you, secure in the knowledge that this will amount to nothing.)
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You learn fast, Iāll give you that.
No, sorry I will not. It is completely accurate from my perspective. Censor it if you like, If it did not apply correctly, then it would not be offensive to those whom it was aimed at.
Well, at least you actually read it. I do thank you for not attacking it without due diligence.
I messaged you privately to try & keep this from spilling into the public
It doesnt need to be there
But since you chose to move that private request to the public Iāll reply here
Please KEEP you remark to others civil
Cease the direct insults
They are not needed
Others are trying to give your their opinion - that you chose to attack them is unlikely to gain support
Those replying have been around a long time and have their reasons for believing that your efforts will have no effect
But - have at it.
And KEEP YOUR REMARKS CIVIL TO OTHERS
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anyhow, does anyone else think the OP is a plant from TOF trying to make a point as its obviously written to just create a stir and is so obviously flawed that it can not be serious.
Just throwing a different and perfectly valid point in the air.
I love this quote!
Bravo!
Hopefully by the end of this week Iāll have time to share my experiences and thoughts with Realbasic, Real Studio and Xojo.