WOHOO! "New" Xojo Roadmap!

It has nothing to do with my opinion or thinking. But you will not even try to declare xojo for a professional grade IDE? While if I have to tell you that xojo is not fulfilling any industrial Standard. So how it shall be a professional IDE? Ah yes, it can not. And they are of course not certified as software venfor. Not fulfilling ANSI Standards means in words: not to use for industrial projects. Not to use in aviation industry. Not to use in medical industry.

So maybe you have a fulfilled Standard with it. I am not. But good. Do what you want to. If your business relies on it: your business. But I have no chance and that is not what I am mentioning it is what underwriter laboratories not accepting and what FDA is not accepting.

For someone self-centered and blinded by their own truth, anyone who disagrees will be seen as a child who knows nothing and only knows how to criticize and be negative. Denying any external opinion and blind to reality and reason. That is a real awful existence.

With all the stupid changes (instead of improvements or bug fixes) and the awful quality assurance this is when xojo actually needed more of those users who say things like they are, help in the forum, make beta testing, but… well, lets see what happens

The only thing clear is that If xojo is successful, it will be thanks to the decisions of the management, if it fails, it will surely be the fault of all those who warned of the stupid decisions.

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No, true. A hobbyist is ignoring the truths and acting like his Solution world is the best. I don’t say Java is the best or C++ is the best. What I say is: there are alternatives which are reliable, stable and maintained in long term, where the documentation of an old version is not disappearing and where new versions are not loosing half of their functionality. That’s why I believe that developers which are ignoring all that facts are not really developing in an industrial environment and that they are not relying on industrial Standards like Ansi/ISO or DIN/EN/ISO Standards. That IS the difference. It is a World outside the believing of a vendor that he can do it without the reaction of the standards: they are statically and from the moment of deprecation on the Software is not to use. While there is still not the needed functionality in Web 2.0 it is not possible to use cause it is not a production status. So. What now. Xojo is out of Range for projects where the fulfillment of Software Standards is not only recommended but part of the project. People which can not even get that situation which has nothing to do with believing but with the national laws from USA over Canada, Asia, Australia, South America, Arabia, Europe, Russia, short: all over the world.
So I am sorry that I called you a citizen. I have to change this: you may be professional developer but you have no Idea about Software Standards and the conditions to fulfill them in case of Ansi, Iso or Gost-R Standards. I have and while I have I know that I can not rely a production on that.

Given enough time, everybody who uses Xojo for any serious work will find themselves in here, with us. It is a law of nature that customers who are frustrated with the ever declining quality control, will voice their concerns on the main forum, and eventually be silenced by management.

The day is coming when Xojo Inc. leadership will be unable to hide their quality from the fresh subscribers and when that happens they will face a total loss of confidence and associated revenue collapse.

Nobody here wants this, but it is what one gets when they choose a fast buck and customer churn over actually delivering the goods. If you do find Xojo is working well for you, outstanding… now go away.

Xojo has richly earned this criticism and the more of it that reaches the consumer’s eyes the faster they will deliver the goods, or be ignored by new prospective customers who take one look at the mountain of dirty laundry and avoid it like a grilled Vaseline and bodyhair sandwich.

What’s wrong with the friends I have? Moving a lot I learned that in each place you can find one, maybe two really good friends - the kind that you are friends with like forever, that you share deep and meaningful conversations with - and you loose all the cruft, the people who you know by name or reputation, but never really got close to. So I have a lot of very good friends, more than my fair share probably, but not a big social circle - and I like it that way. Smalltalk is really getting on my nerves these days and feels like a complete waste of time.

And if you think you can make friends on the internet, or anyone here is your or my friend, then you are most likely deluding yourself. I’m under no such miscomprehension. Sometimes we share opinions, sometimes we disagree, and we are fine with that - because getting to know these other points of view is a chance to see something from a different angle, get a wider perspective, and improve your understanding.

And that’s why, when you stifle dissent and criticism, you start making mistakes - because nobody is left to give you that different opinion. And in the long run, these businesses loose users and go under.

I have seen Xojo make remarkably stupid decisions over the last 7 years, and turn from a solutions- and engineering driven business into a hype- and marketing driven one. I’ve seen more and more people leave, and what was a trickle has turned into a torrent over the last 2-3 years. What hurt Xojo the most is that they drove their professional users away, those that not only paid but also contributed the most - Bob Keeney (ActiveRecord, Full Text Control, Shorts, etc), Axel Schneider (lots of little gems), Tim Dietrich (Aloe Express, Luna, etc), Hal Gumbert (Xanadu), Alain Bailleul (AlwaysBusyCorner, fantastic tutorials, ABmaterials) etc.

Have you looked at the number of users on Xojo’s forum? Have you analysed the data? I have - because I’m a bloody Scientist:

New users per day:

Xojo New Forum Users per day

That’s about 40 new users a month - most of which disappear after a post or two, but are still counted.

On Xojo’s forum you seem to have about 10 people “online” at any given time (at least it was before they switched forum software) - on B4x forum it’s around 50 users and 450 guests. Even two of the VisualBasic 6 forums I checked have around 300 people online.

Google trends:

Want to tell me again that everything is nice and peachy in Xojo-Land? The way Xojo is run it is going under - and that is a shame. Google and Microsoft are gearing up their cross-platform strategies, Apple might follow suit (or not - you never know with Apple), other players are moving in - and Xojo is asleep at the wheel, and instead of making their core product stable and successful have tinkered and introduced so many half-baked features that it has become a complete mess (the renaming of everything is simply idiotic).

But hey, I know where you are coming from - we ALL have been there. If you don’t believe anything I say, trust me on this.

[added Alain Bailleul]

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Btw, I haven’t seen you contribute much, if anything - whereas I send off my 60th article for xDev last week. How about you step up and do something useful? I’m sure Marc Zeedar would appreciate a new contributor. Or write some useful tutorials - there is even a tutorials section on this forum. Mine is in there: Best programming practises: the ListBox. Waiting for yours.

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Sorry dad !

We dislike how he treats customers - stating things that end up being misleading like we’ll support your Web 1.0 apps and a few other easy to pluck examples
I dont think ANYONE has said they HATE geoff
Hell He fired me and I would not say I hate him
I dislike the leadership he provides

The comment about the team I’m not going to touch as I have my own disappointments there but they are personal

Curious YOU feel compelled to come here and berate us about “bad behaviour” :slight_smile:

And FWIW there are NO banned users here - 0
We have a couple who have asked to be removed but thats it

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FWIW you can ignore an entire thread

Part of the difficulty is that the ONLY place you CAN have anything like this … contentious … difference of opinion is here
Xojo shuts them down

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Dont forget @Alwaysbusy , The https://alwaysbusycorner.com/ was a great source of knowledge until he left Xojo.

All this users and many others not only allow the half baked features of xojo usable, they had blogs, training, helping newbies in the forum, they actually added great value to the product, tey actually got new clients for xojo. Their departure it’s a loss for xojo.

If we skip the first half of 2014 to avoid the hype of the novelty and advertising, and also with a worldwide search in all categories, we can have a clear idea of the Xojo relevance in the world:

But at this point I’m sure that @anon50707693 will say that also google is anger at Xojo :upside_down_face:

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Thanks - added Alain Bailleul :wink:

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Alwaysbusy aka Alain is even now a good source cause he was building two web frameworks for B4J so that you can even build PWA with B4J and he is one of the most service oriented persons I know

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I’m not sure i’d completely agree with that; i churned out a couple of apps for mac/win desktop, iOS & Android in LiveCode and it worked first time (cloud database connected apps for a vertical medical applications). Admittedly not complex interfaces and not deployed to app store.
Out of curiosity, what was it you found ‘almost impossible’ in LiveCode?

I’m not at all surprised that FileMaker has licensed liveCode for this… and while it’s removing a lot of focus from loveCode core development/bug fixes, it has greatly enhanced their android offerings.

More importantly the LiveCode forums are extremely responsive and populated by experts; and the LC devs are very responsive to bug fix requests - it’s a very common occurrence for them to a) acknowledge there is a bug, b) publish a workaround if one is available and c) fixing stuff (i have submitted 3 bug reports their latest, one of which was fixed and pushed out as a release candidate within a month).

Perhaps tellingly, there is no need for an ‘INN style’ forum and while you can’t please everyone all the time, the disgruntlement expressed in the forums is orders of magnitude lower thant XOJO or INN forums…

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As addendum: try to write an IOS App with Xojo and after that write one in B4I and on top of this: write one with GLUON mobile. You will finc out that Gluon Mobile delivers you an app for IOS and Android and - comparing to xojo - with a full set of features for IOS and the complete Set of Hardware abstraction to write IOS and Android once!

I agree with most of the replies to your post that I’ve quoted here. It’s ironic how you call names, come here to bitch about ‘bitching’, and suspect some sort of hate going on. I don’t know anyone here or in TOF that hates Geoff, Xojo, the “MVPs”, or “MVP wannabes”.

It’s about a decline in Xojo quality. I had no idea about the charts that Markus and Ivan shared but it doesn’t surprise me. The charts seem to match up with the decline in Xojo quality.

There’s different levels of pain. Some are still using Xojo, desperate for workarounds. Some are working to move away from Xojo but that takes a lot of time. And some have’t launched Xojo in quite a while except to look up a code snippet.

I’m in the latter group. I started using Xojo in the late 1990s. It wasn’t until I started using Web 1.0 until my troubles started. Desktop worked well for us for decades. I spent way more time chasing down bugs that were not my bugs. I’m no super genius but I make up for that in not giving up quickly. I tired and tried but gave up after I learned Web 2.0 was not ready at XDC Miami. It was then when I followed Tim Dietrich to PHP. PHP was fast and I still haven’t encountered a PHP bug. Fast forward a year when Xojo released Web 2.0. All the press releases make it sound like Web 2.0 was ready to rock until folks started using Web 2.0. That’s when I was ecstatic about following Tim to PHP as the reports from Xojo devs was that Web 2.0 was essentially an alpha. Lots of stuff broken AND Web 1.0 was guillotined at the same time. Xojo said Web 1.0 would be supported but I haven’t heard about any fixes yet. There sill isn’t feature parity between Web 1.0 and 2.0. The BIGGEST feature I wanted from Web 2.0 was Responsive pages, but that was skipped for now and it’s not even on the road map.

Just about all of us have spoken to Geoff on the phone. I’m pretty sure all of us were talked off the roof only to see the same problems occur again and again. Nothing has changed.

The kicker is that we want Xojo to rock, but knowing about the core issues makes that close to impossible. I’d like to hear, from Xojo, an apology and detailed plan how quality will be rectified. That could bring me back if it was serious with evidence to back it up.

I hope this helps you understand.

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:thinking: I think the replies were too considered and contrary to expectations, which gave DaveK a headache, so he needed a lie down … :sleeping_bed:

But seriously, I’d be interested in his reply - just not sure we’ll get one. Might have been a poop-and-run …
:policeman: :poop: :policewoman: :police_car:

:wink:

If you are speaking about web, do you really think they have the resources to provide a first class web (or X-platform mobile) solution?

I would like to see them refocus back on striving to make the most frictionless cross-platform complete RAD solution for desktop…

That is where their strength was. I do like the graphics capabilities they are adding, even through that should have happened a decade ago… Hopefully some of the new controls will be things that help desktop app RADness rather than just re-naming existing functionality…

While the mobile and web markets are bigger for sure, I think an excellent niche product for X-Platform desktop is more sustainable than a jack of all trades that produces sub-par applications for every platform.

But I don’t expect them to do that at this point…

If they had the resources to have a good chance of being able to do a good job on all platforms, and keep up with the rapid changes happening on all the platforms, it would be one thing… But it is obvious they don’t.

-Karen

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I also think the desktop (especially Windows) needs some serious care and attention.

As for iOS, the MBS plug-ins on iOS are a game changer and lift it to a whole new level, and in hindsight “plug-ins for iOS” should have been Xojo’s #1 priority as soon as they had released Xojo for iOS.

For Android, I don’t see such a saving grace, but maybe Christian hires an experienced Android developer (Erel comes to mind :innocent:) and creates MBS for Android …

Personally I don’t think so based on how long it takes to get bugs fixed quickly and production ready code out the door.

Hi Stam, LiveCode are a bankrupt company. They are operating under a creditors agreement. If they miss a single agreed payment from the schedule the administrator of the agreement can seize assets and close the business down.

They exist by raising funds from their loyal user base. They have done this multiple times - they cannot exist like this for much longer.

Doesn’t sound like a solid base on which to form an important strategic investment from FileMakers point of view.

Sounds more like a take-over target for FileMaker … we don’t know the details of the license agreement, but I would not be surprised if FileMaker can continue using (and developing) its own branch of LiveCode if LiveCode shuts down. Anything else would not really make sense.

That is actually a mechanism by which companies can swindle inventors and/or creditors, and I first encountered it at the end of the 90s. A US company “bought” a license to use the bacteriophage collection of a Belorussian company, got samples of every stock (that allows them to grow their own) - in exchange for a million dollar and the obligation to build a new modern Institute building. They US company sub-licensed to another US company (run by the same people I think), declared itself bankrupt, and never paid anything. The “new” US company marketed and sold the product. The Belorussian company sued in the US but was told it is all legal and they lost their case.

So I would not be surprised if the LiveCode creditors don’t see much when (not if) LiveCode shuts down.