This thread is embarrassing

Even if that would be so from the beginning. Xojo had always another problem: a small username. There was never an amount of users even near to Visual Basic. Xojo was never that big. And there is the point. Why should big publishers start to develop if there is a small username and that in the knowledge that not everybody needs every Plugin.

Having a username counted in millions it is no problem if only 0,5% of the users will buy the plugin. Counting in thousands makes it for sure complex.Having 500000 users (and I highly doubt they ever had that amount) would mean maximum amount is 2500 Customers. Having 5 Million users…

Let me say thy may had 200000 users in their best times (even the I doubt but well…). A you produce a plugin and maintain it with costs of 350000 per year for your developers, administration and so on.

For your expenses every user in the 5 Million environment has to pay 1,40. Writing a Plugin for a company with 100000 Customers - the same Plugin the same upfront costs) would mean every user pays 700 Bucks. Impossible.

And so there was no Interest even if it would be possible. Writing Plugins like Christian, Einhugur or Mr. Cyphers is possible: One Man Show. So they only have to get the amount of money for one Person. And even then: they need stuffs around, Christian for example Filemaker. Otherwise it is too less to exist.

So as a Plugin Writer you may have the right Plugin Idea but you have to get also the needed revenue otherwise you are dead. And as higher the price as lower is the amount of people buying it.

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And even they came to the point where the Language Maintenance costs became too high and they dropped the product.

Simple formula. You can make money with a product like that. NO question. But. Will it be enough? And that risk nobody wants to have if he has to feed a family.

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Neither did VB when it started :slight_smile:
How many of you ever used VB 1 or 2 ? VB 3 ?
By the time MS got to VB6 it was pretty huge

Xojo maybe could have done that and from versions 1 - 5 or so started to build up a decent sized audience - millions ? No
But it was growing
Ever as big as VB in its heyday ? heck no

Growing the entire market - not JUST for Xojo (RB) was/is their responsibility
And some of that will attract developer like Einhugur & MBS and possibly others as they grow

Actually I dont think that alone was what killed VB but thats a moot point 15+ years after they finally killed it
However, TIOBE etc STILL list VB 6 well ahead of our favourite green company so … its still used and still fairly widely used (crazy but … )
MS made a LOT of money from VB - and if they think that was enough I’m sure you and I would be VERY happy with that amount

But then they had cultivated a wide audience for VB
Something RB/Xojo struggles to do to this day

HOWEVER, they had allies who could/would have helped them - but they ignored them
All the consultants, like Bob myself Tim & others were advocates
Did they get ANY consideration in addressing their issues with the product ? Pretty big fat NOPE

Bob and I started ARBP - a group specifically designed to BE advocates for professional users of RB
I dont recall how many members it had but it was a decent number
It was meant to serve as an advisory group to RB/Xojo
Was large enough it held at least 2 conferences - successful ones if I do say so
Could they even get RB/Xojo to listen to their issues ?
Pretty sure if you asked @bkeeney its be a big fat NOPE

At this point Xojo HAS the market it has because that IS the market they chased
Citizen developers
Not full time developers
And so where have a large % of those full timers gone ? Elsewhere because you can only be ignored for so long before you realize THEY DONT CARE about what YOU care about
And so they have what they have

Sure there are a handful of full timers left - some doing very well for themselves (Jeremy for instance)
Are they the majority ? I do not believe they are; maybe they never were in terms of absolute numbers of users
But in terms of revenue ? I expect they were
And with them abandoning the tool that HAS to have come home to roost

I think its too late for them to salvage things
It would take at least a decade to grow their professional user base back to where it was
But that FIRST has to have a stable, largely bug free product to work with

anyway
enough ranting

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You’re right, of course, but I didn’t mean it that way. Only Xojo (and also Realbasic) missed and miss rudimentary functions. I’m just mentioning date selectors, you need Einhugur for that, and actually still do today if you want it to work everywhere.

And that goes for so much curl, minimal permissions management for web (promised by Geoff, but I misunderstood him, he meant a login screen). Toggle Button missing on version 1 of Web2, seriously? Took me a few hours to write a plugin.

In most languages, it’s just that they can do more, and that’s integrated. But often in simple implementations. With plugins you can then buy added value, additional functions or easier use, etc. Xojo’s plugins are often a “must have” to circumvent your own Xojo implementations and they are therefore not really optional.

If they had integrated plugins to iOS ASAP, most mobile dev would have been happy to be able to use MBS.

And there is also no cooperation with the manufacturers of plugins. Wouldn’t it have been cheaper to integrate a slimmed down version of Dynapdf together with MBS and users who want more can unlock pro features with Christian? In principle, this applies to all plugins. But no, once again they try it themselves. Once again, the losers are the users.

I am not blaming the plugins devs, I am blaming the way how Xojo is not cooperating with those.

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yes - there are a lot of basics missing

They’re nearly required

Yeah that literally wasn’t possible at the time
dyld quite literally DIDNT exist on iOS for some time - there was NO sanctioned way to load a dylib
Odd but thats Apple for you

Trial versions/Lite version
Heck while I was there I even asked a few authors about this and they’d have LOVED to have had lite version in the product with badging/watermarking/whatever in it to steer people to their wares
And you can see where that idea went as it doesnt exist to this day :frowning:

VB did a LOT of things right in that regard

Until/unless Geoff can understand how helping third parties helps him it wont happen
That it hasn’t happened after 25 years says a lot
Unfortunately :frowning:

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Very true, but some cooperation would still have been possible if Xojo would collaborate with others. What do they have to loose? I just don’t get it. I am sure they could still get some incentives from the external devs, but I bet they could be generous, as they would have sold more licenses … in the worst case they would have gained a bunch of excuses to explain some bugs … oh, that’s not us, but this plugin :wink: - just kidding.

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I did, don’t recall what version. I even wrote to Microsoft and Bill Gates and asked 'em to port it to the Mac. Shortly after I read a review of “REALBasic 1.0” in MacUser and my fate was sealed.

The Plugin Developers are doing their BEST. There is nothing more they can reach as a target. The problem of the entire fragmented “party” is that they have no Idea about their Flagship. If they would have they would decide for example to make big parts open Source. But the can not.

Also if they would get what’s going on the would reimplement a few things. Last but not least they could slide implement the use of JVM with Java or even Kotlin. And there would be the Bridge for Xojo to Android.

But all he trains they missed an started to do it better while they meant it is better how they diced the world will look.

Possibly the have no Idea about that what they could reach. But they have none. All this discussions are useless at the end. Nothing will happen in their structure und their thinking what ever we do

Like we see, this discussions are ending all at the coulashouldawoulda point. While they did not it is like it is. And that can’t change. They even don’t want that. There is no difference in the result if they don’t want to while their CEO do not or while their CEO has no Idea of or why ever.

Nope. I don’t think Geoff understood what we were asking for and why. I think he even questioned the groups existence.

Oh dont get me wrong there ARE things that probably could have been done
But plugins when Xojo’s iOS was first released wasnt one of them
I know some folks said “Oh use static libraries & link them in”
Yeah that was fraught with peril as well since it would rely on what compiler was use, what version and so many other things
All that said there ARE things Xojo could cooperate with third parties on
but they tend to just ignore them

And then there were several years where MS shipped with RB
I hardly used that but it was there at one time as its scripting language or something like that instead of VBA

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As I recall thats absolutely correct

He never got the point

Typical for natural, stable geniuses, they are so shy that it is hard to convince them about anything. It like talking to a pencil or a banana. Though it is more productive talking to those.

I have met a number of Mensa members over the years and it’s amazing how often they throw that out in casual conversation. It’s to point out they are very smart and you are not. IIRC G is one of those folks.

It’s rather ironic to do it with developers since many if not most will likely have IQ scores that at least fall into the 120 - 140 range that is classified as “very superior intelligence”.

Having to bring up one’s IQ or Mensa membership reeks of insecurity IMO.

IQ does does not equate to quality of the person’s judgment or of the person.

-Karen (who was temped to tag the this with my IQ result from way back in high school :wink: )

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So much misinformation about IQ.

IQ is not what you KNOW… .it is a measurement of what you COULD know
IQ can go down as you age (and I don’t mean “old age”). an IQ of 100 means you have the learning potential of the average person your age. 120 means 20% greater than a person your age.

So if I were to have an IQ of 120 (I have no idea what it really is), that means I’m 20% above the average 67 year old. Which is different that a 20yr with a 120 IQ

So if you had a high IQ when younger, it may or may not be the same today

I tend to think of IQ as rather analogous to CPU speed. You can still run crap software on a very fast processor, and get more crap faster :wink:

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Tempted to flag that one as The Solution

TBH I dont recall this ever having been mentioned but that really doesnt mean much

I dont think being a member of Mensa, or not, really means that much; except to the people who are members I suppose
There are some very smart people who are dumb as bricks about so much
And some not so smart people who are extremely smart in other ways

Listening to differing points of view, and opinions, is usually more important that who’s the smartest person in the room :man_shrugging:

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Genius?

very superior natural intelligence :stuck_out_tongue: