The Xojo Problem

[Cenobyte]

@thorstenstueker

So why should I think about using Xojo? It is only in your phantasy that I was using it in a free decision. I was using it cause one customer wanted. Not while I choosed it. And he was paying much for this dump error. Also not my fault.

Ah, now I completely understand! You where a Windows user forced to use Mac! An iPhone user forced to use Android!

That explains your attitude towards Xojo completely. No need to further explain. I’ll stop arguing because now you’re denying stuff that I witnessed with my own eyes. I have friends working in the banking world that can confirm what I just said and visited a couple of opticians recently and had a talk with one of the store owners about just that.

And I would also recommend a course in English, because I can’t understand half of what you’re saying. And no: English is not my first language either.

[jalih]

@thorstenstueker

What I know about it in case of Wincore/Noxdorf: since long time not anymore. They ran on Windows NT, switched to XP, now on Windows 10 and changing to Windows 11. Only in your phantasy it is like you say. It is also not so in USA and many other states.

ATM machines also ran OS/2 long after IBM stopped official support. I personally still like WPS more than Windows and Linux desktops.

[thorstenstueker]

OS/2 was still supported. When IBM stopped the Securitty Support for the manufacturers they replaced the machines running on OS/2 immediately in Germany.

[thorstenstueker]

@Cenobyte

Ah, now I completely understand! You where a Windows user forced to use Mac! An iPhone user forced to use Android!

Na. Wrong. I am a Linux and MacOS user and was never in like to use Windows. I had to use it for testing purposes always. But never for productive use. I was also never an Iphone User forced to Android. I have a few I/OS Devices for testing purposes but I by self use an android mobile phoe since long time.

So you are agaun: totally wrong.

@Cenobyte

And I would also recommend a course in English, because I can’t understand half of what you’re saying. And no: English is not my first language either.

I would recommenr not to believe what other people are or not. I would really take the time to listen to the people. What you wrote is wrong. What you believe about me is wrong. But you still think you are right. So: Mr. right, you should stiop telling people that Xojo is the best ever. It is not. There are better ones outside. We are here not on TOF. We are here on IfnotNil. The difference is: here we speak about the Software Development. Not about Xojo is best. Wrong forum. Sorry for you.

[thorstenstueker]

@Cenobyte

I have friends working in the banking world that can confirm what I just said and visited a couple of opticians recently and had a talk with one of the store owners about just that.

I know really exactly that at least 102 opticians in netherlands are not working on Dos base but with modern Software from zeiss. So what ever you believe: it is not like you believe that.

That the health insurance needs the DOS interface shows that they nearly don’t care about the data security. That will change. It is on it’s way. That I know while I can witness exactly that cause of my developments for the vendor. And by the way: you should become more realistic. That people or companies using unsecure Software is not the normal. It is the dangerous abuse of customer data.

[Cenobyte]

@thorstenstueker

Na. Wrong. I am a Linux and MacOS user and was never in like to use Windows. I had to use it for testing purposes always. But never for productive use. I was also never an Iphone User forced to Android. I have a few I/OS Devices for testing purposes but I by self use an android mobile phoe since long time.

So you are agaun: totally wrong.

I was comparing you (forced to work with Xojo while you don’t know it) with iPhone people being forced to use Android while they don’t know it: this always results in a bad experience because people are forced to work with something they don’t know and therefore don’t like.

@thorstenstueker

But you still think you are right. So: Mr. right, you should stiop telling people that Xojo is the best ever. It is not. There are better ones outside. We are here not on TOF. We are here on IfnotNil. The difference is: here we speak about the Software Development. Not about Xojo is best. Wrong forum. Sorry for you.

OMG pot and kettle… If you read my posts correctly you can see that’s exactly my point. I state that “I like Xojo”. I never state that Xojo is the best.

I will quote myself:
“…there will always be people enjoying Xojo as long as it remains alive. There will always be people that hate Java. Same for Windows and MacOs. Or Ford and GM, Kindle and Kobo.”

@thorstenstueker

And by the way: you should become more realistic. That people or companies using unsecure Software is not the normal. It is the dangerous abuse of customer data.

It’s not black and white, that’s what I’m trying to say. Not all software older than a couple of years is automatically dangerous. Not all of the newest software is automatically safe.

[thorstenstueker]

@Cenobyte

I was comparing you (forced to work with Xojo while you don’t know it) with iPhone people being forced to use Android while they don’t know it: this always results in a bad experience because people are forced to work with something they don’t know and therefore don’t like.

No, that was exactly not what you have done. Describe more exactly in situations like that. Should not have been explained for a person like you.

@Cenobyte

OMG pot and kettle… If you read my posts correctly you can see that’s exactly my point. I state that “I like Xojo”. I never state that Xojo is the best.

Even here: be more exact in your descriptions please. Nobody knows otherwise. And by the way: stating that you like Xojo means not that you are on the right way. Writing a CRM with old Versions of Xojo and not renewing is a risk. And that risk you can avoid. I have also to think about that risks and I have to update the used Java Version with the last security updates when building an Update for my customers. Why? It is neccessary, that’s it. It is too dangerous not to do it. Things like that you should consider when developing Software to protect your customers as good as you can. What you are not doing. God knows why. And yes, that means that you have to rewrite parts of your code. That is one of the differences to Java. But it is still neccessary. You can’t change that and you can’t discuss around. That is impossible.

If you want or need to maintain a software in the market you need to take care of the security of your users.

To your attitude against Java: I have nothing against Citizen Devs using Xojo. Do it. But use the actual version and that’s it. Don’t reach out Software with a dangerous security behind. Too dangerous. You can also use C#, C++…Go…many more. There is no need to hack on Java. There are many languages maintained in a real secure wise. Use what you want to. Not my business. But you should acceopt that people are not accepting Software without taking care of security while using old Versions of a development system. Not needed today.

[Cenobyte]

Wow, you really have a narrow vision here. I bet you don’t drive cars older than a year, because these old cars are VERY dangerous. And that microwave oven from 2019 has shielding based on old norms. You’ll get fried in your own kitchen.

Ok, I get it, the world needs people like you to keep the economy running, but that’s not me. I play Donkey Kong on my Atari 2600 and drive around in a 40 year old (hobby) car. I like to play pinball on a 50 year old pinball machine and play records on my 1960 jukebox. And guess what? I’m still alive! I use software to track the laptimes on my slot track that I wrote in 1992 and that piece of software is still working. It even survived the millennium bug people like you predicted would destroy every piece of software in existence. And if I really want to live on the edge, I’ll start up Microsoft Word 2016 to write some stuff…

[thorstenstueker]

@Cenobyte

Wow, you really have a narrow vision here. I bet you don’t drive cars older than a year, because these old cars are VERY dangerous. And that microwave oven from 2019 has shielding based on old norms. You’ll get fried in your own kitchen.

wrong, oldest one if from 1967. I still have an old pinball machine (from 1973), living in a house from 1870, heating with a woodstove my entire house and having Software outside I wrote before twio decades (older ones are not in use or replaced with newer Java ones which I can pack with new Java runtimes without any problem), I also survived the millenium bug. And I was writing mission critical software for nuclear systems, avionic and military use. I was writing medical software for the last twio decades and that’s it. Simple, isn’t it? Two views on importance of software security in a modern world. Also simple.

[jalih]

@thorstenstueker

And I was writing mission critical software for nuclear systems, avionic and military use.

Not using Java probably, what programming language you used?

[Cenobyte]

@jalih

Not using Java probably, what programming language you used?

Xojo

[Cenobyte]

@thorstenstueker

And I was writing mission critical software for nuclear systems, avionic and military use. I was writing medical software for the last twio decades and that’s it. Simple, isn’t it? Two views on importance of software security in a modern world.

It sure explains your paranoid views on software security

[thorstenstueker]

@jalih

Not using Java probably, what programming language you used?

No, not Java. Different languages, C was used and Ada.

Java is not made for real time use at all. C was and is stadard and in many industries Ada is still in massive use, cause it is near to pascal I had a fast access to it as former pascal and c developer. Ada is still the most perfect solution for firmware on RTOS. Sadly it is not available on all Hardware platforms (MCU are often supporting only C / C++ / RUST on their RTOS implementations. That is sad cause no language was until today reacxhing to the reliability of Ada.

[thorstenstueker]

@Cenobyte

It sure explains your paranoid views on software security

It is not paranoid. It is industrial standard. And I guess that should be the normal.

[thorstenstueker]

@Cenobyte

Xojo

Xojo by self defines that it is not for use in that kind of projects. So no, I was not using Xojo for this.

[Cenobyte]

@thorstenstueker

It is not paranoid. It is industrial standard. And I guess that should be the normal.

For mission critical software and the customers you describe: sure. But at least 75% of the software that is written out there is not mission critical. It’s used to manage a store or a music collection. Run a website or keep track of your vinyl collection and print jukebox labels. For these applications it’s not vital to have the latest Xojo/Java/C++/etc.

[thorstenstueker]

@Cenobyte

For mission critical software and the customers you describe: sure. But at least 75% of the software that is written out there is not mission critical. It’s used to manage a store or a music collection. Run a website or keep track of your vinyl collection and print jukebox labels. For these applications it’s not vital to have the latest Xojo/Java/C++/etc.

For CRM Systems driving a company it is. For sure. Cause that can be the ruin for the company. I think that you should be aware of the responsibility you have in this case.

[HalGumbert]

@Cenobyte

For mission critical software and the customers you describe: sure.

This tells me you don’t care about your customers.

Geoff is making choices for HIS benefit not his users. Geoff said it out loud. It’s for “citizen dev” and much less for “pro”.

I used to use Xojo for “shareware” from the 1990s to 2010 or so. It was less buggy then and also less targets. So if you shop desktop apps you MIGHT be ok.

Now I write software for small biz, like 1 to 50 users. I used Xojo Web and at first it rocked. But as I got deeper I started to run to bugs. I spent time not knowing if it was my bugs or Geoff’s bugs. Total waste of time.

Then Geoff killed Web 1.0. He totally fucked me and a lot of other users with the combination of Web 2.0 combined with API 2.0. Then Greg, who left Xojo unsurprisingly, which left Web 1.0 users with a pile of shit with NO UPGRADE PATH where you pretty much had to do a rewrite keep using Xojo.

That was the end for me. If I had to do a rewrite, it made no sense to sick with Xojo. Based on past behavior, I can assume that Web 2.0 will end up being killed off with out an upgrade path to Web 3.0 down the road???

Geoff is a terrible product manager. When he told us that Xojo is “well staffed”, I do t think he meant “for a software company” but instead “for Geoff to profit with acceptable level of bugs”.

I’m not interested in that. Geoff leads people on and when you need bugs fixed you are FUCKED. The ONLY way to get a bug fixed is to lobby Geoff. Otherwise your are FUCKED.

From Web 1.0, I chose to rewrite to PHP. It works and I haven’t encountered a bug yet, unlike Xojo.

[Jerry-Fritschle]

@Cenobyte

Running perfectly and I can keep using it for another 10 years at least, just as long as my Xojo 2021 keeps working. After that, I’m not working there anymore and they can look for another solution.

That’s a long way of saying “I don’t care, it’s their problem.” I hope you at least leave them the source, for whatever they can manage with it.

[ivan]

@thorstenstueker

No, that was exactly not what you have done. Describe more exactly in situations like that. Should not have been explained for a person like you.

Hint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtUtXRRbQR0

@thorstenstueker

I was using it cause one customer wanted. Not while I choosed it. And he was paying much for this dump error. Also not my fault.

HUGE tantrum over and over for not being able to do something and to have to change the tool… but you cant understand others that also dont want to change their tool

@thorstenstueker

You can’t change that and you can’t discuss around.

that is ONLY YOUR opinion

@thorstenstueker

For CRM Systems driving a company it is. For sure. Cause that can be the ruin for the company. I think that you should be aware of the responsibility you have in this case.

@thorstenstueker

It is not paranoid. It is industrial standard. And I guess that should be the normal.

Can you provide a List of Security vulnerabilities on that CRM? Or he must update just because?

@thorstenstueker

They ran on Windows NT, switched to XP, now on Windows 10 and changing to Windows 11. Only in your phantasy it is like you say. It is also not so in USA and many other states.

Windows 11? THAT is a fantasy.

Actually most of them started with Windows CE or Win98. They switched to XP, mainly to some of the the XP embeded releases. And to this day, MOST of them are still with embeded XP, 2009 or 7.

@thorstenstueker

Sometime speople like you thinking that they are the midpoint of the world. Small hint: you are not. Development of operating Systems and security Systems goes straight forward.

ROFL, you should listen to yourself…

Your fantasy of how things work is cute. But you have no idea of the actual reality.

Not by personal opinions or fantasy but FACTS, according to Reuters, 43% of the core banking systems in the United States are built on COBOL. 95% of those XP ATMS also use backend COBOL code.

There are Hundreds of thousands of Business-Critical VB6 Applications still running to this day.

@thorstenstueker

People like you are the danger. And trust me: it is much cheaper to actualize the Software regulary than using twenty years old Software.

ROFL some companies are spending MILLIONS to run their “old Software” from the web Instead of rewriting it (like VirtualUI). But, again, you dont know nothing about the real world actual back end software, it is only your narrow opinion.

@Cenobyte

I hate the current “security culture” and I think it’s highly overrated.

The actual security culture is ok. The problem is people that dont understand WHERE and HOW really matters and just follow trends just because.

@Cenobyte

I get the impression that you’re jealous of the people still enjoying Xojo! You’re bashing it every opportunity you get and if there aren’t any, you’ll start your own new topic like this one.

Something like that. He wasn’t able to do something in xojo, trow a huge tantrum and since then he cant live without thinking about xojo