I didn’t quite understand why there is such a bad vibe against Xojo here in this forum, especially against their CEO Geoff Perlman.
I have been using Xojo for 8 years now and am very happy with it. Among other things, I programmed an ERP software which is marketed as standard software by me.
I use Xojo only for desktop projects.
But I always had the feeling that there are many Xojo fans, the forum and the whole company is considered very positive.
Apparently it is not so. What have I missed? How did this bad opinion about Xojo Inc. and the product come about.
Where do these bashings against Perlman and other employees at Xojo come from?
To start with, this forum has many members who got the 1000 years ban on Xojo Inc’s forum. Then, there are many former developers who used Xojo.
For the reasons why people are critical of Xojo and its senior management, please read the threads.
Everything is explained in detail.
P.S. nothing is hidden behind a ‘members’ only wall, no threads are deleted.
Absolutely
Rather than address criticisms Xojo often bans members
Many of the members here have used Xojo for a long time and have been repeatedly disappointed
Most recently there was the promise that Web apps would be able to be transitioned from their old framework (Web 1) to the new replacement (web 2)
That was mentioned more than once
And it never happened
So anyone with a significant web application had to rewrite it
Not a small feat
Android was promised as “coming soon” for several years
Its now in “public beta” but really is, at best, alpha quality
And to top it all off, despite many people warning the CEO about their wholesale renaming of classes, events, and properties for “API 2” and what negative effects it would have on existing projects they went ahead and did it anyway.
In the end it made many years of examples, GitHub projects, documentation, and other resources for users obsolete overnight.
And this forced many to reevaluate whether they would be better off rewriting their application in another tool or staying with Xojo.
I personally know of many that chose to move to something else.
I’d say that the resentment towards Geoff is based on repeated promises and subsequent failures to deliver or delivering something other than what was promised
Many here no longer trust them to do what they say
Persons got banned while for them it could be really a problem when a person repeats to say: hey, you delivered not what you promise and at the end of it it is not possible to rewrite the application in Web 2.0 cause of it’s leaks of functionality and cause of the not possible import of the projects where even the Button Pressed event was changes to another name and to another functionality. All over it it resulted in a not working Software and a not possible Software Lifecycle and in my case it resulted in a regulatory nightmare for medical products. Only to mention it: the same moment they started to remove the online Help for Linux users and there was no possible way to get the internal to run only after changing a few libs in the Linux OS what was not only not mentioned by Xojo but also not known by Xojo. What resulted in: not possible to use anymore while no documentation anymore while Xojo removes all docs for old Versions with the release of the new version what also ends up in: not usable at all anymore. So the chance for using the Software was not there and I had anyhow to rewrite and so I did in with Java.
I was fighting for a chance not to need to rewrite and that fight ended up in: you are banned for 1000 years from Xojo Forum. So hey, I have the chance in thousand years to come back. That was the result. And for the thread author here: when something like that will happen to your Software you end up in a non usable not compilable source code which is worth: nothing only that you can write along in Xojo or another Software. I was deciding for Java while it runs over decades and has a soucecode stability over decades. And an ecosystem which is let me say not even comparable with the poor ecosystem of Xojo.
Yep. Dana banned me after I posted something and then she deleted it and I reposted as it disappeared. That happened 3 times in about 5 min time and she decided that was three infringements.
Once they want you gone, they make up reasons like they did for Norm.
Dana’s goal was to prevent discussion of critical issues. I’m glad to see her leave Xojo. In my opinion, she was just Geoff’s henchman.
This is key. Xojo is still fairly viable for desktop-only; although the API 2 debacle was a problem for people with a big investment in API 1 apps it did not impact me as I came on after API 2. Even on desktop the abstraction is beginning to leak a bit though, and I would say the main / older alternatives like Microsoft’s WinForms have just as much of a future as Xojo, so … what does Xojo bring uniquely to the plate, especially given it is married to a single language?
I built one internal-use administrative app (mostly CRUD) in Xojo and then decided not to commit further to the platform once I saw how limited the mobile and web platform support was. Also I ported that app from MacOS to Windows (and from Postgres to Sql Server) and while it was doable, it did not go as smoothly as I would have wanted, either, and I had to buy an extra-cost MBS license to fully realize the Windows / Sql Server version.
OK, now I get an idea of why there is so much anger here about Xojo and Xojo Inc. Thanks for your answers.
But I also filter out from your answers that I can still continue with my project, largely developed with the API 2.0.
I wasn’t planning to do any web programming with Xojo, possibly iOS and Android. But I will think twice about that.
I never interacted with Dana (that I know of) but I had a similar situation with the startup I was associated previously for some 15 years. The CEO there was basically a sock puppet for the actual owner who was semi-absentee, only actively involved really at the annual company meetings, mostly on his yacht otherwise. He wanted someone who would be his stand-in/proxy and not impose a competing vision on the company’s operations. Fortunately for all of us, his vision wasn’t terrible and he didn’t micromanage but rather delegated. I can see how hiring someone to be your public face could start out relatively workable and benign but then become dysfunctional in various ways.
Desktop is probably the most viable use of Xojo
However, API 2 and all the related control class renaming & event renaming hasn’t been without issues even if you only use API 2
But, it is “better” than the other targets IMHO
Well, Many of us started with xojo when they had desktop projects ONLY. And were kind of ok with the product, then the CEO decided to abandon the desktop to pursue other platforms and Waste time on rebranding the product/changing the keywords several times with no real improvement.
Xojo state this days: iOS and Android SUCKS, they are way to limited Android filled with bugs. Web 2 has many bugs also, barely beta state, I made several bug reports a couple years ago and not even half of them are fixed. They also removed key features like control arrays… All of this with the same tiny team so Desktop was left behind and with a bug count that only grows.
I still use Xojo for desktop, Windows Only, My last licence is from 2019 and there is nothing new to justify a new release. On the contrary, they removed the web view native renderer from the api2 controls.
So, in a nutshell, new targets are a joke and what was ok, is now obsolete filled with bugs and with many stupid languaje changes that dont have real value but requiere a rewrite.
It is not a “vibe” it is just the reason of why so many users left xojo.
About those 1000-year bans, nobody here, not even Markus Winter (a member I disagree with but respect his outspoken opinions), didn’t deserve those bans.
Indeed, being critical was enough to be banned or become a nuisance when somebody reported a problem too much in public.
On the TOF forum, there is a lot of censorship. The thread is closed if an MVP disagrees or finds the subject not attractive enough. Threads are removed. That is why you see so many fan messages on TOF.
Here, as long as you do not abuse people, you can write about anything. Here, the environment feels like it is among friends. I spent much more time here than on the TOF forum.
What counts is who was the responsible manager for TOF at the time. If I am not in the driver seat I would not allow my boss to publicly name me as the person in charge. Question of professional conscience.
Recently, even the information page about the management team puppet show has vanished from Xojo’s website.
She was certainly involved in how ever Hal came to be banned
I literally watched it happen
So her physically doing it or not is a distinction without much difference
