Hal is the only one in my recent memory…
And that only while they did a provocation against him: they wanted him to freak out on it. That makes the difference.
Just two years ago at XDC 2019 in Miami, Geoff praised Tim D and I for evangalizing Xojo. That went down hill fast…
Yes that escalated quickly. He was dismounting you within a minute. No Question.
Does banning someone from the forums count as killing them with kindness ?
I’m confused 
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Holy cow, I didn’t look at the first digit of the year…I thought they just banned you until this afternoon. That’s crazy.
I think Markus may be joining the banded soon!
I was thinking the same thing. And that thread is going to get locked. I’m surprised they’ve left it up this long. If the title actually read “debt” instead of “dept” I think they would have removed it.
He may be pushing his luck
And if “the community” is in a bad mood that could happen sooner than later
25% increase on bans today working up to maybe a 50% increase if they boot Markus too.
Dana / Alyssa deleted 4 of my posts today.
And my post was not nearly as critical as Markus’s.
Someone read this and thought it was a How To Guide ?
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Alyssa said:
We aren’t some evil corporation. We are normal people trying to do our jobs and take some time to answer questions here. We wish we could make everyone happy but that is never possible. You can take these facts and agree to disagree but constantly berating Xojo and the employees trying to help on the forum is not productive. Now, I have work to do.
No one said Xojo was evil. They seem to be taking it personally, but no one is being attacked personally. Comments that are critical to Xojo’s products and processes not the same.
Not liking a post followed by deletes and banning followed by playing the victim is just a way to shift blame.
Somewhere I came across … hmnmmm
Lets just say that entire blog post is an entertaining read given whats on that thread
Great in principle.
The practice … well …
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I would go further: My Problem is not Xojo it is it’s release cycle like I wrote more than one time. Thet is the problem in the middle. The Product has nice sides. But for me it is not usable for new commercial projects. Makes no sense.
When I say recently, I mean in the last 15 months because that is recent in 20+ odd years. Dave, Norman, Thorsten, and now Hal with the other guy being before my time.
The “Improve the Discussion” “rule” is so vague I feel it’s just put there to be open to interpretation.
They fan the fire by ignoring the hard topics, cherry picking information and targeting their disinformation machine at it. Xojo kept out of the discussion apart from back patting and jumping on any post that backs their narrative with a steam of hearts from staff and devotees.
In the middle of it all they “happen” to drop a new (shambolic) page about the questions on this current dumpster fire topic. Now either they have noticed that technical debt is an issue for their users or that it was just a response to the current thread, either way its a real issue.
There are only a few posts on that thread that actually know what its like to be a business user in the real world. Don Lyttle’s post is an interesting insight into the fortunate position he finds himself, but I feel that it just wouldn’t be possible now because of the current state of things. From my limited time as a pro user I would often see a consulting lead come through then a plead on the forum for the same thing which I assume meant that no-one filled that request. Just imagine if Don had been working on a nice web 1.0 project, sorry company, here’s your project but its dead in the water as xojo pulled all support. Fingers crossed we don’t find a major issue in the next few months eh?
Oh and the troll blog post it just icing on the cake. They actually think we’re trolling? I can’t speak for everyone else but personally, I’m just contributing to the discussion and/or pointing out inaccuracies in information they put out, but I guess that is subjective. If no-one cared or spoke up, stupid statements, ideas and decisions would go unchecked. We know it works as users have successfully argued cases for change in all sorts of places. Heck I even argued to the case to get flicker fixed, was I trolling them there, telling them hard truths about how they’ve done things incorrectly?
Quite frankly, if they didn’t put out so much blatant bs and dis/mis info about their product and actions then a lot of these issues would die a lot quicker than they currently do or not even be issues in the first place.
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Yes
If you’re not rah rahing everything they do you’re irrational, a troll or some other kind of thing they can just dismiss and ignore
Its one way they deal with a seemingly growing number of dissatisfied users
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I am driven to say: Dear Xojo inc, I was a user which developed Device Software with Xojo for a lot more then 11000 devices on the market for more than 75 Customers. The Device Software was Xojo Web Server and I was always able to get the Job done. Until one Point: when Xojo took Web 1.0 from one day to the other out of Support, cute the Documentation for Linux Users and ran into a not working Web 2.0 without the features Web 1.0 had. That was the day I started first to fight for a change a) in their Release System so 2019R3.2 would not be deprecated or b) bringing the needed features to Web 2.0. BOTH Xojo could not deliver or did not wanted to deliver. I don’t know. What I know is that I stood there with my Customers and Software which I was in the knowledge that within the next Audit the Software is dead. So I had to do something. After I got banned even I was getting that there is no chance to do that together with Xojo. I had to find a way and I had to do a change. So I was changing to Java and was re-enginering all the work of two years within eight month and done all testings with my Team. The Java Platform Software was born and I started to deliver the Java Platform to all existing Customers. For what? 0 $ (in words: ZERO). Why? Because I had a contract to fulfill and so I had to deliver a Software which is able to get through all the authority controls. That process was not only costing MUCH money it was nearly costing my existence. But the decision was right at all.
- I got rid of the need of a functioning Xojo
- I had not to look for every Update if maybe my functionality is present
- I could stop of doing Workarounds over Workarounds
- I could concentrate on working Software
- I could get a working GUI without compromises
- my Software Development was from now on from all Platforms for all Platforms
- Database Connectors are working seamlessly
- the IDE (IntelliJIdea) is working like a charme on all Platforms
- the Development of IOS AND Android Software with GLUON Mobile became possible
- I can write one Codebase for all the logic for all Platforms
- I can refactor all my Code I have done
- I have a reliable framework
- I have a complete documentation for every Java Version ever was existing
- I have from now on granted Support for my Language until 2030!
- I know that with the next Long Term Support Version my Software will run while I can test it on the Release Candidates
- I can switch to the next Java Version when ever I want to until the end of its Support Time -2 years (as I am using Java 11 now I have to change until Sept. 2024 while it’s Support ends Sept 2026)
- I can migrate to a new Java Version with the knowledge that it has Support until Sept. 2029 so my next move to the next LTS after Java 17 will be 2027
- my Software will run on all Platforms after that dates without Problems
- I can integrate Github or many other Systems for Version Control and so on
- I have a visual Designer which is really helping me to build my Stuffs
- all features are working there is no feature which is not working
- with the right Look and Feel it looks really nice
- I have ALL platforms with one Jar File if I want to
- I can build native Packages for all Platforms (Win, Mac, Linux) if I want to
- as the Software is on all platforms reacting the same I can build and release without any problem
- I have no hidden Eastereggs which needs Plugins for tons of money
- I have no need for external Software for everything I want to do
- I have with my Frameworks Gluon Mobile, Cuba Platform, Java FX and Java Swing a complete working All Platforms IDE even for WebApps (with Frontend in pure Script and with Backends in Java which can handle even in their Backends more connections and Traffic like Xojo will ever be able to).
- My Customers bought the same IDE Solution. Okay, in the first year it is more expensive while I need IntelliJIdea Community Edition (oh fuck, it’s free of charge), JFormdesigner Marketplace Edition (50 per year), Cuba Platform (for individual Developers 189 $ per year, for Companies 389 $ per year) and for mobile Development I have to decide if I want to use Gluon Mobile (my personal favorite) which costs 500 $ per year or codenameone which is a bit more expensive. As Individual Developer and that are the most you are paying nearly the same as for Xojo Pro per year, for Companies a bit more.
- I can install on so many Computers as I have them, nobody interests for it
- The performance of the Apps is much above the Xojo Performance
- the Reliability is given instead the Idea of Fast Release of Xojo
- I have Android…and professional Level IOS
- I can program on Mac, Windows, Linux
- I can program even Raspberry PI ZERO which Xojo can not (They can only starting with Raspberry PI 3 or 2 I am not sure but definitely not Zero)
- If I need Support there is a friendly community and the Java Companies are user friendly with supporting
- I don’t need any Java Contract
- I have industry proven Software for my Development
- There are no compromises in questions of functionality
- I really have the control about that what the Software is doing
- I can program thread safe Multithreading Applications with nearly no effort
- The Amount of functionalities in the Framework is nearly 50 times more than Xojo
- Xojo has a broad user base? Java has at least 11 Million users
- even if I ever want to change the IDE I can change to Netbeans (free) or Eclipse (free). I don’t have to pay for it if I can not
So I guess: there are enough fundamental Goodies. So I have to say thank you Xojo for showing the character of the Company and the bad quality of the Software, for doing a killer Release-System and for Cutting the documentation for Linux users, Thank you for the not working Releasng of Web 2.0, thank you for rebuilding Language parts without any sense (renaming msg box to Messagebox). Thank you for telling to me and the other users that Xojo 2019 will still be supported. And really, really. I have to say thank you for the bad quality of the IDE under Linux and under Windows. In the meantime I tested with MACOS and that is a big difference. But under Linux the Xojo IDE was the Hell. Ah and yes thank you for banning me for 1000 years from the Forum. All of that was helping me to get that with a company that is not thinking about professional needs, about Software for aviation devices, maritim devices and medical devices which are all only are allowed to publish when under control of the authorities you can not write Software for the Market. No, you need as a professional Developer a professional Base. And that Base you’ll have not with the Xojo Software. But with Java, with C++, Kotlin or Scala. Especially that was helping me much to get all of this.
So the Behavior of the Company was really fundamental needed for my own education to learn that with that Behavior and Release Model I can’t live and I won’t live. Thank you for that. Cause otherwise I would never wake up possibly and searching ten times a day for a workaround while the functionality is not working. Like getting Client time with Xojo Web. Yes, my first Support Request. And it still don’t works like it should. Cause it delivers Server time. Not Client Time. Oh yes, I am happy.
Negative criticism is not necessarily for “No constructive purpose to their actions other than creating dissent within the community”
Being extremely disappointed with and believing that the company is going off the rails and not really listening, and still caring enough to try and get them to change course is not that…
If that was not the motivation most would just move on and forget about Xojo.
Of course as Xojo inc is convinced they are on the right course, they see it as an attempt at rabble rousing to hurt them.
One thing about Xojo … people sure do get emotionally attached to it!
-Karen
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I would take it personally too. It’s a small team, I guess they must feel Xojo (the product) is their child, and it is being critized, strongly.
Yeah. I still am really. Xojo could friggin rock. 
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