Vaadin Talk

2 hours to explain “agile”? No thank you! :wink:

That’s not my opinion, but that’s a bit of the “zeitgeist” nowadays, without diligence you don’t get far. Now we’re all busy here, but at the same time we’re overwhelmed by offers and alternatives and it’s difficult to keep our focus.

  • I learned a few languages during my career. Talking about full-time work, you can “master” the basics always in one week (assuming you can already program in another language). Means you’ve looked at the core commands and structure and the “philosophy” behind the curtains.

  • After a month you reach the point where connections slowly become clear and you won’t give up anymore, or you gave up!.

  • But only after 2-3 months do you reach the point where you feel at home again and you’ll start getting overconfident from time to time, and then the big bludgeon comes - it always comes sooner or later, that’s a certainty :-).

I think even for something relatively simple like Xojo this applies these days. If you cover all platforms it might even take you longer, as they have far less in common than the advertisements promise.

I can’t remember how many hours of training videos @bkeeney had recorded, but I think 2-3 full days at least. And that was years ago.

But whatever language I learned it was NEVER the language which caused serious challenges, but always the overall ecosystem. UI, frameworks, database accesses, libraries, a new IDE, etc.
I did never much in Visual Studio (not VSC!). I believe it will take me at least a month to feel home in such an IDE. Even VSC will cost you a good week to feel comfortable.

  • If a user understands that you don’t actually learn “Vaadin”, but that the underlying “concepts” also applies to Swing, JavaFx, Springbot and that you almost only change the class names, then it suddenly becomes “lean”.
  • But that only applies to the classic Vaadin, if you take Hila from the same company, then that’s also “Vaadin” but the concepts are slightly different. But one way or the other, without a solid basic knowledge of Java, it will never work. That would be like learning Vue or React without knowing TypeScript.

Oh, all those choices in 2023, we have too many of them :-). What about mongoDB versus postgres, no that’s a different topic… :wink:

You can also learn Rust “in a lean way” by simply accepting the facts: https://www.areweguiyet.com/ . It may come one day, there are also companies that are already programming UI in Rust (but they all curse in blog posts), or one accepts that it is not mature yet. At least they avoid the word “in testing” in that list :wink: . Or you simply use https://www.egui.rs/ and don’t whine that this or that doesn’t work yet or may undergo severe re-design as the authors are pointing out.

With GO I would argue in the same way. Either you live with fyne.io or what other frameworks offer, your assess their roadmaps, or you leave it but UIs are certainly not (yet?) GO’s forte.

But no matter how we decide, a technology change never comes without tears and never without considerable diligence.

And to that extent @HalGumbert’s decision can simply be right. Remember the saying: never change a running system :wink:

So much text and I haven’t even talked about certificates, graphics, helpers, documentation, git, installers, build optimization, debuggers, IDE Plugins, installing webservers and deployment. Which of course you still have to somehow learn at the same time.

I think someone has to start bluntly, that’s my personal advice. Success comes over time if you implement something and not just by researching it (which of course is a necessary step, but don’t put years into your research).

Totally agree. I just don’t have the time (right now).

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