Official Xojo survey: how likely are you to recommend Xojo?

I unfortunatly do not feel that will ever be the case. Not to diminish the knowledge that Jeremy has… But I do not think he has the background to contribute to the necessary implemention of that knowledge into the Xojo compiler.

FORTUNATELY API 2.0 does NOT require compiler changes :slight_smile:

I do wonder how they determine who gets the survey and who doesnt

No idea, but it’s not the first they send me. Might be the fourth? Comes about yearly.

I got one as well. No idea why they chose me. I remember getting one last year, too. My answer would be a 5. For cross-platform desktop, it’s a decent product (or I’m used to its warts after 15 years). Even before the rapid-release model, I was frustrated by the bugs that went unfixed and the regressions from release to release that were seemingly unrelated to where the work had been done. The libraries that need updating. The pursuit of new features for the sake of new features. The unwillingness to listen to market input on what we want instead of what Geoff wants.

Would I like to be able to write applications that target iOS and Android without having to learn a new language? Sure, but I’d much rather not have my code scattered with comment blocks that remind me I’m working around a bug in Xojo rather than doing something productive.

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Before RR REAL engineers werent using the IDE day in day out as much
Basically up to 2005/6 era the IDE etc was written in C++ so a bug in the IDE could go unnoticed by engineers. Once they wrote the IDE with the product itself this becamse less likely - at least as far as the bits that the IDE used a lot
Things that werent used by the IDE still suffer from not being dog fooded adequately (reports, web, and other bits that are not used in the IDE)

This is where they need a Universal project
A single project that can have a “target” added to it that sets up what kind of compiled item it will generate (console, web, desktop, ios, android, etc), the architecture, and that automatically has a #if TargetXXXXX flag you can use in code
Then the compat flags would be immensely useful since now you could have one project that can spit out a console app, a desktop app, etc and all you need to do to “share” code is set the appropriate compat flags

It all boils down to 2 things:

  • lack of resources
  • lack of attention to quality

I had a hard crash in Xojo.Core.Date.Constructor 6 weeks ago (http://feedback.xojo.com/case/58879). I must have been doing something really strange with time zones. Christian billed me for an hour and I had a workaround. The original bug report still is in “needs review”.

You know I have been the German developer Evangelist for Xojo for some years, and to be honest I am glad Xojo cancelled their international support because I could not recommend it as (more or less, I tried to keep a critical eye on the subject all of the time) whole-heartedly as before.

In most aspects, I share Markus’ thoughts and I am afraid that the IDE will fall even more behind current competitors when there is a whole new platform to support while the most robust platforms are only macOS and (disregarding the GUI design issues) Raspberry Pi. I did not hear about the engineering team growing accordingly.

Knowing that we could already have a much better tool – some of the top developers offered their help but were rejected –, and feeling thrown back in development when the first attempt to have a unified language – the Xojo framework – was declared a failure, I feel much less in control of my own work than I did in the past.
On the other hand, there is no real competitor in native xplatform development. And some of the often-used solutions invite a lot of trouble when it comes to cross-dependencies and malicious code insertions in somewhat fifth or sixth party solutions which are part of them.

I did not receive an email either, but to answer it anyway on a scale from 0 to 10 I would give Xojo a 4 currently. And I am not happy about this.

Web Apps in PHP can be competitive if you don’t need an installed app and don’t need offline access. I’ve was focused on Xojo Web apps for this reason. I didn’t want to have to create Desktop, Mobile, AND Web where Web could do everything I need.

But now, Xojo doesn’t have a supported Web product since Web 1.0 is essentially dead and Web 2.0 won’t likely be ready until the fall.

YES. This is why I’m coding in PHP now. When I check the forums and Xojo discord [ https://discord.gg/s4TstG ] all I see is folks trying to get around bugs. And those bugs are not getting fixed in a timely basis.

Since I’ve been working with PHP, I haven’t encountered a bug yet. :slight_smile:

I’d say it comes down to just 1 item
lack of resources
they pick ambitious goals and then due to a lack of whatever resource they arent able to do the best job possible NOR devote the ongoing time & effort to improve things
and so we get things in some initial state that remain that way as they try to tackle other things

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I’m surprised by the ratio of engineers/developers to non-coding staff if I’m being totally honest.

Its always been a fairly high ratio of G & A folks to engineers
There have been points where G&A outnumbered engineers
You can count em
non-eng Geoff, Jason, Dana, Alyssa, Stephane, Robin
eng - Travis, Greg, William, Paul, Javier
dont think I missed anyone

I’m not. Sales driven.

I can’t pretend to be an all knowing businessman but a good product sells itself.

You mean like Betamax? :flushed:

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VHS won because it was cheap and licensed much more liberally unlike betamax
It was a “good enough” product to swamp beta in consumer markets

Actually… VHS won, because of the “PORN” industry… seriously… BetaMax was a superior product, but the Porn industry was flooding the markets with XXX VHS tapes, so people bought the unit that could play “those” tapes…

I know. My point still stands.

“Quality” is just one factor. The more important one is “Value for Money”, which basically equates to “(features + quality) / (money + effort)” where

more features = higher score
higher quality = higher score
cheaper = higher score
less effort = higher score

Xojo: 22
more features = 6 (Grid, Reports, Date&Time, iOS)
higher quality = 4
cheaper = 5
less effort = 7 (working around bugs, the last 10%)

Xojo with MBS, Einhugur, BKeeney: 27
more features = 8
higher quality = 7
cheaper = 4
less effort = 8

Swift: 33
more features = 10
higher quality = 8
cheaper = 10 (free)
less effort = 5 (cross-Mac)

Xojo as a cross-platform tool scores lower on features and quality AND money than more specialised and free tools like Swift or C# but makes up for much of it with the ease of learning and creating apps for different targets.

The plugins increase all scores (features, quality, effort) but do cost money. They nevertheless do a lot to make Xojo more competitive, so maybe Xojo should treat those developers better?

But it is not only that Xojo’s quality decreases, it’s also Xojo’s strength (the effort requget what you want) where Xojo increasingly drops the ball.

iOS target? Joke.

Windows target? Getting worse, looking antiquated, falling way behind.

Android target? Sometime soooonnnn(ish) …

Btw just read on Paul’s blog “With Android apps expected in 2018” …

Linux target? Nearly forgot about you …

Web target? Long neglected, but SOON to make a grand new entrance … any moment now …

Raspberry Pi? Isn’t that like Linux?

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The plugins increase all scores (features, quality, effort) but do cost money. They nevertheless do a lot to make Xojo more competitive, so maybe Xojo should treat those developers better?

I’ve advocated for years that Xojo really needs to actively work to grow the third party market much like MS did with VB. Its fallen on deaf ears.

Raspberry Pi? Isn’t that like Linux?
Combine compiling for ARM + existing linux target and Pi was just about free