further insulting posts WILL be flagged & hidden
regardless
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One click on compile button and I have my javafx app running native on all platforms. No cloud needed. Web included, cheap Server is enough. That’s the difference. And yes, web and mobile as a cloud service made from the desktop app…that has nothing to do with a mobile app. It is still a webapp running on mobile in a browser or a WebKit. Sorry, that’s a webapp not a mobile app. Has nothing to do with a mobile app. Not even a bit.
That’s the point. Declare it like it is and speak truths and everything is perfect. But that is a problem. The one click build with GitHub acions for all platforms results in native running apps.
And by the way: the most Webapps I have in production are running with a few thousand concurrent users. And no, not on a 10 euro per month server.
By the way: always you try to tell that windows Servers are good and Linux bad. Come one, get the reality.
The syntax has no problems it’s nearly the same in c and c++. So what you want to say? That all the professional programmers using java, c++ and c need a stupid syntax? Maybe you can’t realize it: the syntax isn’t stupid. Simply.
All tries until now are far away from making sense. Again one of the behaviors of so many people. When it’s ready for Production it can be an alternative. It can. But not now. Far away from it. Reality is that it has no connection to being production ready now. Future possibilities are coming in future.
I have never said Linux servers are bad. I don’t have a particular issue with Windows Server but that’s not the same thing. Everything is not black-and-white in my world.
I have said in other posts that the public API I was planning to do on my own would probably live on a Linux box, and that my experience being mostly on Windows is a function of my client requirements since the mid 1990s, and is not because I am pushing Windows over Linux or anything else. When you come into a MSFT/Wintel shop you do not turn down paying work because they have all that Windows infrastructure unless you can demonstrate that Windows can’t handle it, which I cannot demonstrate, because Windows in fact handles it just fine.
Whether the higher TCO is worth it is their problem, not mine.
Maybe in your situation, I am in Unix Business since decades and so I don’t have any Microsoft problem. While using Unix and later Linux / bsd it was never interesting to use windows for servers. Since I am in the need to have all Software for all platforms I also never had the idea to write in any dotnet language. I had to for a few projects others wrote to get out bugs and so on.
On the other side I can’t understand why to use any project with a proprietary infrastructure and a small ecosystem. That’s why this thread triggers me so much. Listening to the complaining about Xojo and immediately running in the next nearly same trap would be the result.
I will admit that even my experience with FoxPro (not a small ecosystem) was a cautionary tale. I was tech editor of FoxTalk magazine in those days and based on an interview with the development team after the MSFT acquisition, with PR handlers present, I was assured that the cross-platform strategy established by Fox Software (Windows, Xenix, macOS at the time) was not on the chopping block. I gave several clients assurances accordingly. Of course a year later there were still 3 versions of FoxPro but they were Win 16, Win 32s and Win 32. No more Xenix or macOS versions (or DOS, although that was understandable).
I never forgave them for that, and I suppose that is at least in part what you are getting at regarding proprietary software. On the other hand, open source projects also fail and while in theory you could maintain or try to take it over yourself, I’m not sure that’s actually going to help once the sponsors flee the scene. Most such projects are way beyond the scope of what you or I could sustain single-handed.
So because of Fox and Xojo I am very wary of Lianja, believe me. But … I have some willingness to hear them out, in part because I liked the 4GL world and it was good to me, and they are basically the heirs of the Fox mantle, such as it is anymore.
Of course here in the real world the work that comes to me and provides the golden handcuffs also keeps me firmly in the .NET world. So … don’t worry, I’m not on some Quixotic mission to port such things to Lianja or anything else out of pure nostalgia.
Okay. The scenario is simple.
Compare: Xojo would die. You can use your Web Software and also IDE and all stuffs for long time until the OSses are not able anymore to run it. Or why ever. But you can run your Software Investment. Possibly you need then to move from Xojo Cloud if your program is hosted there to another place. But you can run your Software further without any problem.
If Liana fails their Servers are gone. All your mobile and Web Stuffs are gone. Passed away. While running only on Liana Servers. you can’t run them anymore from that second on. And yes, I know, even Xojo is hard but that is even more risk. Much more.
And what I saw was from Diskussion like this: people are moving to stuffs like this if only a few people write: ohh, good. Like people say ugly syntax for C, C++, Java or even say verbose compilers. Even when and if they know: the most stable and reliable compilers in the business. Not from interest. They write that. Is true or not. And people believe that. And exactly that is the point.
I know that nobody with at least a minimum knowledge about security and investment security would even think about that. But I know also that many citizen Developers are trying to refuse the need of learning a programming language with the promises of the ability to build no- or low-code.
And the claims about mobile are not true. It is not mobile Software when running on their Cloud Servers. it is still Web. Nothing else. And even Progressive WebApps are - as the name says - web apps.
So sorry if I stepped on your feet…sorry for that. But it is true and not only, like Norman wrote to me in a PM, my opinion. it is fact that the risk is extreme to loose the time invest for the entire development with this environment.
If open Source it would be a game changer. While there would not be the end of line when they die.
Compare it to IntelliJ. You can have the CE for 0,- Bucks. That helps. While you have the security: even if the die, I am not lost immediately. With Liana you are lost form that second on.
IN some universes, not yours, the CLIENT says “we want to use these servers, this database, and this programming language. Do you want the work or not”
I understand thats not the case for you
You TELL users “we use this language, these databases, and this os” etc
Nice position to be in but not everyone gets that luxury
It is not luxury to say to a customer NO. I have done that several times. And guess what. Could cost one, two, three years. But they came back. Why? While I was right. The universe is the same. And only one time I did not say no. Guess what. That was the expensive Adventure with Xojo. Teacher me: never again.
Most projects like that are dead really fast. And the Customers need alternatives. And that is something I can provide. A save harbour.
I’ll repeat myself
That works FOR YOU
It doesnt work for everyone
So some consideration that what works for YOU might not work for everyone
Circumstances vary
I’ve had clients literally say “Hey we made this in and we’d really like it if you could help us make it better”
At that point saying “well first thing I’d do is rewrite it in something else” means you dont get the work. Or worse maybe lose a client entirely to someone who DIDNT say that
Last one was a piece of software written in Access
When it came to the crunch WE, that and me collectively, decided what this needs isnt rocket science and someone who CAN update the access app is probably the right choice
And that wasnt me
Didnt like to give them away as a client BUT that was the right thing to do
I would never, really never touch a Software written in Access to “make it better”. There are differences. I realize that there are programmers outside jumping as high as the customers want them to. I would not do that. The entire point is: why should I do that? In the knowledge that everything is functional reduced.
If I have somebody coming and asking if I can help him make his Xojo/Delphi/whatever Software better I say: no. While I will never touch that tools. and I can explain why.
I will not and I was never – with one exception - use Toolchains like that. I am using C++, C, Java for Desktop, Web and Mobile Apps. All native compiled for Mobile and not PWA. With Languages without not working restrictions, bad documentation and so on. That costs more time to fix than to rewrite.
Exactly
YOUR situation means YOU dont have the same requests made of you that maybe Bob or I do
The request I got was from a client I already was doing work for.
So I did the best I could for them and referred them to someone who COULD accomplish the task.
Your situation isnt my, or everyones situation.
So what works for you MAY OR MAY NOT work for someone else
And what works for someone else MAY OR MAY NOT work for you
And you have the luxury of just saying NO
Understand that not everyone does
IF I say “NO” it means I’m likely NOT working and not earning an income
So, sometimes, my answer is “I’ll have a look and maybe I can do something”
I can understand that. But in my case I would have to write Software for a customer where I can’t do the Job in a quality like I could do with another Toolchain. I was doing it always so. Maybe that is a big difference to the most others? I have no Idea. But I know that many people in my environment are doing it in the exact same way.
But like always: you can handle stuffs like you are used to. But I would like to say: I will only develop in languages I know that I can provide a working and performant Solution. Working with Xojo can’t provide that for example.
The next part is: In Germany it is so that a customer can start a trial. You will have problems to win that if you are not really able to give evidences that there was no other way to handle the project for the customer. I never lost one like this until now. and I will not.
Taking care that the Software Development ad the consulting are fulfilling the Standards is one part of the process.
And there is the next part of it. When I would have to analyze the process I would find out that for example Access is not the right Platform for the project. That is the moment where I would say: NO. Why? Because my insurance would not pay if I would loose that fight. And that I don’t want to have.
But, again: it is your decision is you want to do so. No question. But the normal way is what I described.
As I was often consulted as an expert from different courts I know how that can end. While it will not help to say the customer wanted it so.Security you will have only if you said no in that moment.
So let me say: it is a big cultural difference between Europe and US/CA. So, for example, if you have to write an Office automation with Access Database connection which shall process 20000 Datasets within a few seconds you may end up with Xojo with a quarter of an hour. That shows: I have a problem then. While I was accepting a toolchain which is not able to do that Job.
It was one of the discussion points at the last java one for example because the risk is extremely high to get into traps like that. And if you accept while the customer wants that toolchain you need to have a documentation that you informed about that circumstances. That would be the only way out.
My point was really that different people have different needs and demands that will influence their choices
Some have more control over that - like you
Some have less
Different situations will force people to make different choices
In mine I wasnt asked to rewrite the Access app
I was asked If we were to rewrite this what would you use?
And that was what prompted me to really dig into whether or not it NEEDED to be rewritten
The end result, after asking lots and lots of questions of them, was that NO it didnt need to be rewritten. Rewriting it would have been fun but a waste of their time & money.
So we found an Access developer (they are relatively plentiful in the area the client is in) and they now do that work for the client
Whether I like Access or not wasnt the issue
I did what was right for the client - not me
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Hi Bob,
Building desktop apps to deploy on the desktop does not require Lianja apps cloud which is for deploying web and mobile apps.
Desktop apps can be packaged up to run on windows, Linux or MacOS. This has nothing to do with Lianja apps cloud.
Lianja itself on MacOS is packaged up and notarized by Apple. Desktop apps for MacOS can be packaged up and submitted to the App Store. Seeing as they include the Lianja runtime which is itself notarized by Apple there is no issue with having your package notarized.
On windows you can create a standalone exe which incorporates the Lianja framework. This exe is code signed also so that it runs on windows.
Just to clarify, Lianja apps cloud is our hosted apps service where any web and mobile apps can be deployed and made available to your users.
This is not a web hosting service as it incorporates a complete platform for authentication and running of apps that specific users have access to using roles and permissions.
Lianja can be used for building business apps that perform CRUD operations on persistent data in the cloud. However, it is not limited to that.
You can also have your own private cloud if desired.
You would not use Lianja to develop games of other non business apps for mobile. It’s not designed for that purpose.
There are many advantages of building progressive web apps. These are described on www.lianjacloud.com
The roadmap has details of future versions and a history of past development. It states that in Lianja 10 (next major release) we will provide the ability to build Lianja apps as react native apps. This functionality is in technology preview in Lianja 9.
It’s important to understand that Lianja is not just an IDE but a complete application platform.
If there’s anything the platform does not do that you would like it to do you can extend it using the C/C++ extensions API. This lets you add your own low level functions and classes to Lianja. This in fact is how chilkat works in Lianja.
As of Lianja 9 runtime distribution is runtime royalty free.
You can develop and run console apps on all supported operating systems. These can be written in LianjaScript, Python, javascript or typescript and incorporate the Lianja framework which is quite extensive.
See https://www.lianja.com/doc/index.php/Category:Framework_Classes for details.
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After tryout and studying the prices: wow. Nice product. You get into a $$$ Machine. Crazy More expensive than Xojo Pro +.
And that’s it. Desktop Deployment with a runtime for 1000,- Bucks. year, the server / Cloud for 1200 Bucks a year…man.
And one thing I have to correct: ou can run even on AWS. Buy a Cloud Runtime. Not that it will be cheaper. But it is like it is and what it is.
So for people without any real Idea for Application Development with modern Languages on a native base Lianja can be a way to build not too complex apps. With Limitation known from other 4GL tools. That is the reason why they nearly don’t exist anymore.
Last time their Github Repositories are updated is between 24 month and ten years ago.
It looks like that is a bit outdated for the ecosystem around but also there is not the MUCH code around.
I can see the risk behind and also I can see that for many people it is the only chance to even build apps.
I wrote verbose and ugly, you extrapolated that to stupid. A Freudian slip, perhaps?
Even the main CPython implementation is gradually working towards making Python a compiled language. Changes being made to Python’s bytecode are not just to improve performance now but to turn it into an IR that can be compiled to machine code in future.
For now though Python remains a bytecode language running in a virtual machine.
Fortunately for me even in its current guise Python does what I need it to do so I can already enjoy its clear, concise syntax and not have to suffer with something uglier and more verbose.
Then use Python. But ugly syntax … sorry with Python you cannot do everything you can with Java, C++ and C…not even a bit of it. So please try to stay on the ground. That is not ugly, that is a syntax closer to mathematics. And so readable.
And the problem with “verbose” I was not understanding. Why? While I can’t understand the problem you have.
And no, nobody wants to look smarter using such syntax. I and I guess the most others want to get the Jobs done.
What reminds me to Python: the ecosystem, Desktop, mobile: all missed. Especially native compiled mobile is missed. And short hint: with Java (CN1) and JavaFX (Gluon Mobile) you have native compiled Mobile. So what? Why should anybody switch from a Solution without any problem, stable and reliable to Python?
Thanks for the clarifications @Barrymavin