it needs to be managed, but it’s also way better than i expected, and it might just be good enough.
Lol… I also think its because most tech companies are now run by sales folk, instead of visionaries. Its been said several times that Tim Cook has next to no interest in the actual products and I do feel like that is reflected in Apple’s lineup.
2 Likes
that tracks.
I don’t think I’ve ever been at a company that didn’t list everything but sales as Cost Centers. It would make sense to replace all cost centers with profit centers, and have sales replace everyone.
Forgetting sales needs something to sell. Ooops. 
I thought Cook was a supply chain guy
Not a salesman ?
I thought the cook mention was tangental. He was supply chain, but I think that’s not usually a cost center either. At least not where I’ve worked.
indeed it was a tangent
Yes but why you are asking? I can’t see any use for it with Xojo. The ostrich algorithm is used when and if the bugs are rare. With Xojo it is like running into a wall, standing up, bringing me on distance and start again to run into the wall.
It doesn’t appear to mean literally, in an exact implementation.
The genius knows (and act like if he knows) that algorithm.
— sorry seems to have responded to the wrong author! —
Well, you certainly did add more “trash”.
in the order you post them:
-
Agree: LC does indeed have spotty record - overpromises and doens’t always deliver. But what they do deliver is always solid.
-
Their track record for bug fixing is actually very good but as every platform, it’s not perfect. But this doesn’t hold a candle to XOJO’s record… so yeah, this comment is nonsense.
-
You can’t have errors “that only show up when compiling” because you don’t compile. It’s an interpreted language, not compiled. What you run in the IDE is what the app actually is. There is no real distinction between the two and in fact you can create an app that allows object editing like in the IDE and include a debugger in the app and so on. They literally bundle the whole engine with the app. So yeah, the comment just suggests you’ve never touched LC.
-
What “surprise branding” is this? What are you talking about? The only requirement from LC is that you acknowledge LiveCode in the copyright notice. No branding shows up anywhere unless you put it there. More nonsense…
-
No, there is no massive change in how code runs between updates. Not with dot releases and not with major releases. Some code is marked as deprecated, as with all languages, but it continues to work. Again, this is nonsense.
-
I agree - it is heavily dependent on crowdfunding. Mainly because their version of opensource destroyed any income they may have made. No one ever had real reason to ever pay anything for years. They’re not great at getting funding. The users who suckled at the teat of free lunches with opensource for years are still refusing to pay even small amounts.
-
Rejections can happen, but almost never on MacOS - typically it is iOS that is affected there is a 2-3 week wait after a new Xcode version comes along and the same for Android with their major platform changes. Very rare to wait more than 3 weeks. This is clearly a priority for them and an early version update always rectifies this
-
it is only 440/device IF you are using their “internal users” license. If you are instead selling software they now want up to 5% of what you charge (the “app payments” license). If that doesn’t work for you, could sell you app openly and then it’s 440 for a single Dev licence and 5% or less of profit per sale.
-
Did you really “port” a XOJO app? I take it you mean you recreated it in XOJO from what you could see? I have to ask - have you actually used LiveCode?
It always annoys me that people refer to LiveCode as a “low code” platform. I think of it as an “easy code” IDE. My scripts run into several thousands of lines. It’s “low code” as much as XOJO is, ie if you don’t really use it. This misconception is borne by their silly marketing.
It is easy-code however. Stress-free programming. You don’t spend weeks of your life battling the IDE 
LiveCode Create is a more of a low-code platform. However it’s a hybrid. It has ‘actions’ that allow non-programmers to easily program buttons etc. But what this does is actually generate clean code in your app, which you can view/edit. So the way to think of Create is a low-code wrapper around an easy-code language. It is still alpha/beta. Bits of it are usable, but will probably need another year to mature.
If anything the new licensing changes will reduce my costs for the IDE by 2/3 since I am not contracted to create apps for a company and do not use the ‘internal users’ licence. Other than the dev license, I either pay them nothing for freeware, or up to 5% of sales for commercial apps.
Loving the LC trash talk on this forum though… Almost as much as the XOJO trash talk
1 Like
I had a longer response but I think my biggest mistake in this damned forum is continually believing people will respond in good faith.
If you want to be pedantic, i can be pedantic.
- In many versions, the process of selecting the menu option “Save as Standalone Application…” from the “File” menu creates an “Application” where at least the results of metrics calculations and rendering commands can appear different on the final presentation.
If you would like screenshots of the process to figure out where it is, when I have free time I’ll consider it.
But I think most people in this forum understood what I meant when I said compile. It’s a term thats been thrown around when people talk about packaging their HTML too, so maybe think through what you are reading for 5 damn seconds. And good for you if you never experienced issues with the process, but if you ever read just the release notes you’d know there were differences in standalone.
The rest is just, are you fucking serious? I’ve been using HyperCard since the 90’s, and LiveCode since whenever the first OpenSource version was released. The paid commercial version. Because license-wise there were heavy restrictions on the open source product, and commercial use still needed to be paid for.
If your only goal here is to annoy people, congratulations. People wanna have a discussion on technicalities and shit, cool. Leave the pedantic, insulting, and condescending bullshit at home tho. Or at least read about the topic before shitting out your reply.
I swear to god I hope this isn’t how you treat your cardiology knowledge.
May be your Idea of Software Development but does not work for many. I can not work with live code with their licensing model. Their pricing is totally clear. As far as it counts for me I asked them for licensing fees. They want 5% of my revenue. Not the way I ever would go. I ever could go. I have to pay my employees. Not to pay LiveCode.
I don’t want to speak about multithreading. Loss of time. But I want to speak about their licensing policy. About the transaction speed. And so many other things. It is - you are right - not a low code platform. So why not directly Java or C# or other alternatives?
I know a few people that tried to get an application checked for IOS. Rejected. The same written with Codenameone: no problem.
To do that, they would have to spend a lot more $ to expand their development team, it would need to be led by someone with impeccable chops, and then – and probably most important and relevant in this case – they would need to get out of their developer’s way and let them do the job while giving them all the resources they require to do it.
None of, much less all of, these things are EVER going to happen on Geoff’s watch. And things are so fubar there now that you could not pay me enough to take over the company and try to dig it out of its hole in any way that would involve salvaging the original Xojo vision. It would be faster to found a separate company and build it out from scratch. And people would rightly question my sanity if I had the $ to do such a thing. There are products people actually want out in the marketplace, and none of them involve any dialect of Basic to which they would need to move from other languages to.
Whatever train RealBasic was riding in the Long Ago has left the station and been long since run off a broken trestle somewhere in the Alps.
5 Likes
Would, could, should. The ability of a company to innovate is coupled to the innovation camp they form out. Leader of the company and the development is in that company the CEO. There is no CTO. CFO. All of this is one person. Makes things complex especially with a product in a so wide range.
Starting what to change…so many things. The IDE is a joke looking on Eclipse, Netbeans or IntelliJIdea. Or Rider, Pycharm, Microsoft IDE’s, visual studio code. The IDE is at least 2 decades behind them. And there is no chance to get this state corrected without spending much money. While the IDE is such crap you also have nearly no chance to implement Github AI assistant. It would be able to and Github has nothing against. But it is impossible. Starting Copilot chat I can ask in IntelliJ to write me code in Xojo language.
Sub ConnectButton_Action()
DatabaseModule.ConnectToDatabase
End Sub
Sub QueryButton_Action()
Dim rs As RecordSet
rs = DatabaseModule.ExecuteQuery("SELECT * FROM your_table")
If rs <> Nil Then
While Not rs.EOF
MsgBox(rs.Field("your_column").StringValue)
rs.MoveNext
Wend
rs.Close
End If
End Sub
So I can say: at least it is possible. It is not implemented and possibly not implementable but it would work. So where is the Plugin? Why there is none? Everybody is speaking about. But nobody is providing it.
CCO, Chief Calamity Officer 
1 Like
Not everyone likes to use AI for coding. We already have a lot more powerful tool, a human brain.
1 Like
Smart. Sweet. But slow thinking. I spoke about features other IDE have for long time now and people want to have. That you don’t want to: your problem. AI can not help making better Software. But help saving time. That’s it. You have enough time? Good for you.
Threading on multiple cores? Would be also one. CodeCompletion like it should be. Ahh. Nay. not possible cause of the Structure. CommandLineCompiler. Ahh. Naa. Licensing. And so it’s going on.
Just a thought. Can’t they participate in Google Summer Code to find someone who is really very devoted Xojo developer with C/C++ skills and who may work for less salary then a average dedicated developer they hire?
As I said just a thought as I don’t know if Xojo is even eligible for such participation.
I agree with you here. Till I did not know that there were other better alternatives to Xojo, I used to swear by it and also felt blessed that I had found such a powerful and productive tool for building cross platform apps. Because I could build apps for Mac from Windows without requiring Mac as my end!
All that I had to do was write my app, define the target platform(s) and compiles. After that ship the compiled app to client to test.
Then one day someone introduced me to another competing tool called Xero Coder (which now is a dead product), which was easier to learn and use and has more powerful features compared to Xojo. Then I realized that there may be many other alternatives, one just has to be a bit open minded and look around and of course be ready to try them and adopt them.
Even today I still feel that, the hardcore Mac developers should look up Fire (IDE) and Mercury (compiler).
As for me I have stopped building desktop apps for Mac and am fully into building complex to very complex web app (that is enterprise solutions) that are guaranteed to work on any OS as long as there is a powerful HTML5 compatible browser.
But I still feel that there is a place for Xojo and it should innovate to become market leader. If it does not, then down the line I am seeing that twinBasic will start eating its market share in a year or two.