# What is the final outcome of green energy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Other\ **Created:** [14 September 2023 14:27 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544 "2023-09-14T14:27:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/eugenedakin/32/3892_2.png) [@eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/u/eugenedakin)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 17:32 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/101 "2023-09-16T17:32:11Z")
> [@bgrommes](#): > > “A science degree” \<\> scientist > > In any case any actual scientist captive to a corporation is subject to having their findings ignored or distorted by the corporation’s management. And that’s being charitable. Tobacco industry “scientists” said for decades that smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer, and oil industry “scientists” said for decades that there is no climate crisis or pollution problems. > > And there are, ahem, still people attempting to normalize fossil fuels and minimize the climate crisis. Ahhh yes. There are definitely two sides to each coin. This goes down a completely different rabbit hole. Definitely a good 2-beer discussion. When politics and money become involved in pure engineering, science, and technology, then it becomes really messy. Yep, and from the opposite perspective people are trying to normalize the opposite of fossil fuels and maximize climate alarmism. I guess it depends on who can afford the largest loud-speaker? ---
**Author:** ![npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/npalardy/32/10_2.png) [@npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/u/npalardy)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 17:43 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/102 "2023-09-16T17:43:21Z")
> [@eugenedakin](#): > > Fortunately, it is well understood that Oil & Gas professionals in APEGGA understand that people are crude oil and liquid. It it very well understood. Good I’ll ask my contacts there about this 🙂 > [@eugenedakin](#): > > Yep, and from the opposite perspective people are trying to normalize the opposite of fossil fuels and maximize climate alarmism. I guess it depends on who can afford the largest loud-speaker? Do fossil fuels, when consumed, release carbon dioxide ? And has that carbon been stored in some form in the ground for many many many (usually millions) of years ? (I’m thinking coal, oil sands, conventional crude, heavy crude and even bitumen like we frequently find in Alberta ?) Is CO2 a “greenhouse gas” (ie its very effective at trapping infrared - or heat) ? > [@eugenedakin](#): > > I guess it depends on who can afford the largest loud-speaker? Like the O & G industry in Alberta ? (hence why the govt has stopped approving solar projects above a certain limit ?) I’ll be very frank My contact at the AER has flat out said they think in terms of oil & gas and everything else is secondary. And unimportant. And thats basically government policy in action ---
**Author:** ![Karen](https://ifnotnil.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/7feea3/32.png) [@Karen](https://ifnotnil.com/u/Karen)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 17:49 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/103 "2023-09-16T17:49:07Z")
> [@bgrommes](#): > > “A science degree” \<\> scientist Agreed… but where somebody winds up is often different from were they wanted to go. -Karen ---
**Author:** ![npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/npalardy/32/10_2.png) [@npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/u/npalardy)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 17:56 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/104 "2023-09-16T17:56:38Z")
Even better is a direct quote from Smith > “So I’ve told them, how can I bring on additional wind and solar if I’m not able to secure the reliability of my power grid by being able to bring on natural gas peaker plants? That’s the heart of the problem,” Smith said. Great so DONT approve them until/unless THEY can provide that peaking load from their project. I’d be all for that. Give those projects a reason to become more like the power gen plants based on gas But no The govt doesnt think like that So they just quit approvals because “Bad Trudeau” 🤦‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/eugenedakin/32/3892_2.png) [@eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/u/eugenedakin)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 17:59 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/105 "2023-09-16T17:59:34Z")
> [@npalardy](#): > > Good I’ll ask my contacts there about this Yes, please do. 🙂 > [@npalardy](#): > > Do fossil fuels, when consumed, release carbon dioxide ? Sure, fossil fuels, humans, trees (during darkness) all release CO2 - it is an essential chemical of life to exist. > [@npalardy](#): > > And has that carbon been stored in some form in the ground for many many many (usually millions) of years ? (I’m thinking coal, oil sands, conventional crude, heavy crude and even bitumen like we frequently find in Alberta ?) Yes, some is released - such as on the surface land of the Fort McMurray area. Some storage is deep in the earth. There is a large amount of Crude Oil in Quebec and Ontario (some say more than Alberta?). > [@npalardy](#): > > Is CO2 a “greenhouse gas” (ie its very effective at trapping infrared - or heat) ? Yes, this is one of many factors - definitely not the only one. > [@npalardy](#): > > Like the O & G industry in Alberta ? (hence why the govt has stopped approving solar projects above a certain limit ?) I don’t think so, although I could be wrong. There were too many greedy people trying to push the environmental-flag to 1) get money from the government, and 2) have free reign to destroy the environment. The government regulatory branches really do not care how much something costs, and are just trying to do the right thing. If someone in the Oil and Gas industry does something wrong, they get punished. If someone in the Uranium industry does something wrong, they are also punished. Same for solar, etc. > [@npalardy](#): > > I’ll be very frank > My contact at the AER has flat out said they think in terms of oil & gas and everything else is secondary. And unimportant. > And thats basically government policy in action I can see why your contact would say that. And it makes sense. Human demand for energy consists of food, construction, heat, manufacturing, etc. Most of this energy comes from Oil and Gas because of the energy density and reliability. Maybe one day, solar, fission, fusion, wind and other energy forms will be able to provide reliable and sufficient energy in the future. For now, the Oil And Gas industry is attempting to help these other energy initiatives (solar etc) by providing electricity during a storm, or when the wind is not blowing. ---
**Author:** ![eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/eugenedakin/32/3892_2.png) [@eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/u/eugenedakin)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 18:08 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/106 "2023-09-16T18:08:33Z")
> [@npalardy](#): > > Great so DONT approve them until/unless THEY can provide that peaking load from their project. I’d be all for that. > Give those projects a reason to become more like the power gen plants based on gas > > But no > The govt doesnt think like that > > So they just quit approvals because “Bad Trudeau” Agreed, this is one of many factors. Some of the other factors are from ROI (return on investment). If I go to the bank and get a 5-year loan for $50 million dollars to make the next greatest solar panel. If it takes 30 years to make enough electricity from solar panels, then I will go bankrupt. If I take the same 5-year loan for $50 million dollars in Oil and Gas, and I pay the loan back in 2-years, then I am financially stable. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for saving the environment - I wish it to be performed in a sustainable way. Stopping all forms of Oil and Gas energy overnight is just purely irresponsible. This brings us back to the death-of-humans debate. Lets use the broad example of building electric cars. When the technology is new, humans can’t build an electric car without using Oil and Gas Energy. Energy is needed to mine iron, create rubber tires, make electric motors. Supplementing Oil and Gas energy with solar or wind power is a great idea. When its -40 outside, I don’t want to have to think about ‘enough sunshine’ or ‘enough wind’ to keep me from freezing in my house. Its going to take time - correction - ALOT of time - maybe a couple of generations - to make this happen. ---
**Author:** ![npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/npalardy/32/10_2.png) [@npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/u/npalardy)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 18:43 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/107 "2023-09-16T18:43:03Z")
> [@eugenedakin](#): > > If it takes 30 years to make enough electricity from solar panels, then I will go bankrupt. Solar is, now, the CHEAPEST form of electricity generation there is Even cheaper than coal [https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/renewables-cheapest-energy-source/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/renewables-cheapest-energy-source/) > **[Cost of electricity by source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source)** > > Different methods of electricity generation can incur a variety of different costs, which can be divided into three general categories: 1) wholesale costs, or all costs paid by utilities associated with acquiring and distributing electricity to consumers, 2) retail costs paid by consumers, and 3) external costs, or externalities, imposed on society. > Wholesale costs include initial capital, operations & maintenance (O&M), transmission, and costs of decommissioning. Depending on the local regula... Your ROI will be much quicker than 30 years > [@eugenedakin](#): > > Stopping all forms of Oil and Gas energy overnight is just purely irresponsible. Personally I have NEVER said any such thing Anyone serious about such a move to renewables also knows that its a transition Its the speed of the transition to them thats debatable It needs to be fairly rapid according to the IPCC and many other national an international research groups Generations is far too slow to avoid many of the worst outcomes > [@eugenedakin](#): > > Energy is needed to mine iron, create rubber tires, It [doesnt have to BE fossil fuels](https://www.mining-technology.com/features/mining-vehicle-electrification/) that do this though [Bagger 288 - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_288) (FWIW its ELECTRIC) Underground mining [is also doing this](https://magazine.cim.org/en/projects/the-electric-underground/) ENERGY doesnt automatically mean fossil fuels > [@eugenedakin](#): > > When it’s -40 outside, I don’t want to have to think about ‘enough sunshine’ or ‘enough wind’ to keep me from freezing in my house. Its going to take time - correction - ALOT of time - maybe a couple of generations - to make this happen Me either Which is why we NEED storage - so on super windy and sunny days we can generate way more electricity than is demanded. And can put that back onto the grid when generation is lower. IF we continue to think in the same terms we do now where _we need more so fire up the plant and make more_ then we will NEVER move. Renewables like solar & wind require a different mindset. You HAVE to think about it from the point of view of making TONS when you can and consuming it later. Just like we do with nearly EVERY other product on the planet. We dont harvest grain and consume it all immediately. Even O & G we dont do that. We have some storage & reserves. So WHY do we do that with electricity ??? And continue to only think about it like its the ONLY possible way to deal with electricity ? oh, except for the batteries we stuff in cars, or portable devices, or … ? And if it takes generations then, while I’ll be long dead, humanity is likely screwed ---
**Author:** ![bgrommes](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/bgrommes/32/2651_2.png) [@bgrommes](https://ifnotnil.com/u/bgrommes)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 18:45 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/108 "2023-09-16T18:45:21Z")
> [@eugenedakin](#): > > Yep, and from the opposite perspective people are trying to normalize the opposite of fossil fuels and maximize climate alarmism. I guess it depends on who can afford the largest loud-speaker? O&G can afford by far and away the largest loud-speaker, plus it is an entrenched player, which is why it’s such an uphill battle to move people from a place of complacence (and therefore complicity) and one of meaningful action. If anything, we as a species have been way more guilty of climate unawareness and minimizing, than the inverse. Facts are not optimistic or pessimistic, positive or negative, they just are. You need to rationalize your role in all of this. I get that. But just as with a lot of things in life, it doesn’t really matter how you feel about it. You might, say, enjoy a fatty diet, but your cardiovascular system doesn’t give a fig about your feels; it is just that much more likely to throw a rod whether you want it to or not. You might, say, be tired of Covid but the virus doesn’t give a fig about your feels; if you catch it enough times, eventually you’ll be disabled whether or not you “believe” in Covid or masking or vaccinations or long covid or are convinced that people who warn you of these things are “alarmists”. You might want to think the fossil fuel industry has no appreciable role in what you want to think is not a very alarming climate situation, but the climate doesn’t give a fig. ---
**Author:** ![SteveW](https://ifnotnil.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/f05b48/32.png) [@SteveW](https://ifnotnil.com/u/SteveW)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 20:44 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/109 "2023-09-16T20:44:03Z")
> [@npalardy](#): > > Solar is, now, the CHEAPEST form of electricity generation there is Unsubsidised solar is now the cheapest form of electricity generation there has ever been, a point made by Tony Seba in the video I linked to above. Also the production cost of solar panels has reduced so much that a construction company in Australia is using them as cladding as they’re cheaper than plywood. He predicts rooftop solar will soon be cheaper than the cost of transmission across the grid so even if other methods of generation had a cost of zero they’d still be more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![SteveW](https://ifnotnil.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/f05b48/32.png) [@SteveW](https://ifnotnil.com/u/SteveW)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 20:47 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/110 "2023-09-16T20:47:32Z")
> [@npalardy](#): > > Water will flow through a sieve with a mesh > you and I wont Perhaps we have to put you in a press to extract the oil, just like with the olives and the algae 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/eugenedakin/32/3892_2.png) [@eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/u/eugenedakin)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 21:11 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/111 "2023-09-16T21:11:31Z")
> [@npalardy](#): > > Solar is, now, the CHEAPEST form of electricity generation there is > Even cheaper than coal This is a not being deceptive. Lets do some really simple economics and take the price of a new cheap Tesla and a new cheap Toyota Camry. We expect the car will last at least 200,000 km. The cost of a Tesla in Calgary today (16 Sept 2023) is $59,900. Lets pretend the cost of electricity is completely free Lets pretend there are no maintenance costs The cost of a Camry in Calgary today (16 Sept 2023) is $34,151 We will need fuel to drive 200,000 km. Driving in the City (horrible efficiency) the gasoline-only car gets 8.5L/100 km. This means it will need 17,000 litres of fuel to travel 200,000 km (200,000/100\*8.5). Today, a litre of fuel is $1.40/L. Fuel will cost $23,800 (17,000 L x $1.40). The total cost for a gasoline car to travel 200,000 km is $57,951. Yes, oil changes will need to be factored in. I am presuming all vehicles will have the same costs for tires that exists on both cars. From a purely economic point of view - its less expensive to drive a brand new gasoline car 200,000 km than it is to purchase a Telsa if the electricity is completely free. ![Economics](https://ifnotnil.com/uploads/default/original/2X/0/0af5afe960fe7ce9c5e997485b72b291bc192e4d.png) ---
**Author:** ![eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/eugenedakin/32/3892_2.png) [@eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/u/eugenedakin)\ **Post date:** [16 September 2023 21:23 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/112 "2023-09-16T21:23:34Z")
> [@SteveW](#): > > Perhaps we have to put you in a press to extract the oil, just like with the olives and the algae Oh, I forgot to mention during our many informational exchanges - most crude oil does not go through a filter. It usually requires going through a refinery to get the stuff that flows through a filter. Usually larger mesh screens are use to catch the ‘big’ stuff. ![pig](https://ifnotnil.com/uploads/default/original/2X/0/0d0646a7ef066d1590b27808ba5b41ca5a1fee35.jpeg) I am pretty sure this will not flow through a filter - or mesh. Edit: This is a picture of a line that is to be cleaned - the process is called Pigging (yes, oink, oink) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/npalardy/32/10_2.png) [@npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/u/npalardy)\ **Post date:** [17 September 2023 03:01 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/113 "2023-09-17T03:01:13Z")
You’d be digging out pits just like the olives 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/npalardy/32/10_2.png) [@npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/u/npalardy)\ **Post date:** [17 September 2023 03:02 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/114 "2023-09-17T03:02:38Z")
HOW exactly does the cost of owning & operating a tesla relate to the cost of generating electricity ? Completely 100% OFF topic and not relevant to my post - at all It currently costs more to generate electricity using COAL OIL or GAS than it does to generate from solar (and wind) Renewables are THE cheapest form of generation we have and fwiw most car sites I checked, like [this one](https://www.autoguide.com/tesla-maintenance-cost/), peg total annual maintenance costs of a Tesla lower than owning that Camry No transmission No coolant No air filters for the engine No fuel filters and so on There’s just more to go wrong on an internal combustion engine but, that still wasnt my point about it being CHEAPER to GENERATE electricity using renewables than it is to use OIL COAL or GAS ---
**Author:** ![HalGumbert](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/halgumbert/32/2198_2.png) [@HalGumbert](https://ifnotnil.com/u/HalGumbert)\ **Post date:** [17 September 2023 16:32 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/115 "2023-09-17T16:32:26Z")
> ---
**Author:** ![npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/npalardy/32/10_2.png) [@npalardy](https://ifnotnil.com/u/npalardy)\ **Post date:** [17 September 2023 17:26 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/116 "2023-09-17T17:26:56Z")
AFAIK They are not the first state to sue > **[New files shed light on ExxonMobil’s efforts to undermine climate science](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/14/exxonmobil-documents-wall-street-journal-climate-science)** > > Executives privately sought to downplay link between fossil fuels and climate change despite public pronouncements, WSJ reports Its many of the same tactics that [large tobacco companies used to fight](https://www.salon.com/2021/12/04/how-big-tobacco-used-science-to-avoid-accountability-and-set-the-blueprint-for-big-oil/) against being regulated and health warnings about smoking causing cancer despite them knowing it did from their own research ---
**Author:** ![bgrommes](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/bgrommes/32/2651_2.png) [@bgrommes](https://ifnotnil.com/u/bgrommes)\ **Post date:** [17 September 2023 18:00 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/117 "2023-09-17T18:00:40Z")
> [@npalardy](#): > > Its many of the same tactics that [large tobacco companies used to fight](https://www.salon.com/2021/12/04/how-big-tobacco-used-science-to-avoid-accountability-and-set-the-blueprint-for-big-oil/) against being regulated and health warnings about smoking causing cancer despite them knowing it did from their own research I’d say “exactly” rather than “much” the same tactical approach, but yeah at this point anyone shilling for fossil fuel interests has no credibility. The public is more widely addicted to the lifestyle enabled by fossil fuels than it was to tobacco and it is harder to see the negative consequences so it’s taking them longer to catch on, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![dalu](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/dalu/32/1776_2.png) [@dalu](https://ifnotnil.com/u/dalu)\ **Post date:** [17 September 2023 19:26 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/118 "2023-09-17T19:26:36Z")
> [@eugenedakin](#): > > I guess then we can talk about the existentialism of what is the definition of ‘alive’. This is a great discussion about AI and life. don’t use big word you don’t understand, coincidence today: > **[The Existentialism of Style vs. Substance - JSTOR Daily](https://daily.jstor.org/the-existentialism-of-style-vs-substance/)** > > Camus, Sartre, and Beauvoir were misread, misunderstood, and misperceived by English-speaking readers due to interventions of publishers and editors. is there an intellectual trend in amerca about it ? maybe the header is right, you use the word in an inapropriate way, it’s misleading not a first time in the page… ---
**Author:** ![dalu](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/dalu/32/1776_2.png) [@dalu](https://ifnotnil.com/u/dalu)\ **Post date:** [17 September 2023 19:42 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/119 "2023-09-17T19:42:13Z")
> [@eugenedakin](#): > > we are just crude oil. ![iStock-175261577](https://ifnotnil.com/uploads/default/original/2X/8/8980328846fe4c4928df350ca6976129be5de4e1.png) ---
**Author:** ![eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/user_avatar/ifnotnil.com/eugenedakin/32/3892_2.png) [@eugenedakin](https://ifnotnil.com/u/eugenedakin)\ **Post date:** [18 September 2023 14:04 UTC](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544/120 "2023-09-18T14:04:56Z")
Well said . Perfect 🙂 [Previous page](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544.md?page=5) [Next page](https://ifnotnil.com/t/what-is-the-final-outcome-of-green-energy/3544.md?page=7)