That’s not really true but it looks so. Because there was no slowness for virtualization with Mac Geoff don’t wanted this as far as I know. By the way the b4j buildserver is not virtualized but that is not the point. They had no solution for this and no ecosystem and they are with five or six developers to small to do this all. Realize that they have tons of construction places and no engineers. On the other side they hsve no rxtrrnal framework zu word with they halve own partial frameworks without connection between the frameworks, that makes development process even longer
Not a lie but whatever
But when you lift one line and take it out of context …
I’m not talking about other tools and whatever they have done
meaning “IOS with Xojo” not “ios with any tool on the planet” - that wasnt what I was talking about at all
Xojo does NOT work with on device debugging or use on device debugging
It only uses the simulators and those only work on macOS
So you MUST have a mac just to debug (never mind build sign etc) IF you work with Xojo
As far as Xojo is concerned you MUST be on a mac to do iOS development (and deployment)
Several other tools that Xojo uses also only come with Xcode - which also does not work on other OSes
as for other tools that
just compile using a remote service over internet
what do you think those other tools are doing on the back end ?
I’d bet they run this on a mac or have a mac involved on the remote
Which again comes back to “you need a mac” for certain things even when you use other tools
In part this is just how Apple has made things work
but they decided it was easier just to remove iOS proyects from windows IDE.
No - they decided it was so close to useless to only be able to EDIT a project & not run it to debug that it wasnt worth having it in there at all
You’d need to have a mac so why not just work ON the mac ?
I’ve said this myself in the forums & elsewhere as have geoff & others
IF Xojo ever supporte on device debugging then it would be a different matter entirely
But they dont
EDITED to add context to my comments
EDIT II : change “ios with any tool on the plant” to “ios with any tool on the planet”
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Not entirely true, as for the programmer himself, he does not need to ‘have’ a mac. e.g. in case of b4i, I can write an iOS apps without ever owning a mac. I think what is what Ivan meant. It depends on the definition of ‘Need’. So you are both right: to compile, it can only be done on a mac, but certain tools like B4X allow you to do this without owning one yourself. Xojo is not one of them.
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While the Build Server Option of B4I is allowing you to build remotely on the Servers of anywhere Software you can compile outside. If you own a Mac for example you are programming with Parallels/Windows on a Mac and compiling on MacOS you have all the abilities. Even the Bridges are running without any problems. So you can develop on every PC you can run B4I on and that’s it. In my Case we have Company internal Apps written for Customers which are not making any problem while compiled not on local Mac. We have also B4A written Android Apps where we shared Sourcecode and UI Elements between IOS and Android so the writing of Android and IOS APP parallel was rapidly fast.
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Ok Ok Ok…
I think we are looking at the same thing an describing it differently.
to EDIT code, for a Mac/iOS project (no matter what tool you pick) doesnt need to be on a Mac.
but to COMPILE or DEBUG you need a Mac somewhere in the build chain. Either physically typing on it OR using a build service like CodeMagic (that uses Macs on the backend to compile iOS/Mac projects). That is an Apple-ism and not any other tool choice.
and in my definition of a working system for a platform, you need to be able to EDIT, COMPILE, and DEBUG the code. but that is my definition. your will vary.
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That is true in all views but there is a second need I have for IOS Development: On Device testing when debugging. I don 't need a simulator cause simulators are always behaving different.
Whatever: I can not even edit the code of an IOS Project on Linux or Windows cause it works only on Mac as far as I can see. And that is only one of the problems I have with that. Xojo is a Mac focused development platform. Adding of Linux and Windows IDE was only doing one thing: enlarging the possible amount of customers. But really good xojo works only on Mac, not on Windows and really not on Linux. In my view it was and it is a development System for Mac Users which can develop from one platform for all others. But on Windows and Linux it has massive performance leaks, Memory consumption problems and so on. That is one further view it is for me not from interest to work further with xojo. In todays environment you have more than that. Espicially on Linux but also on Windows there is a big performance difference for example between IntelliJIdea or B4x on one Site and xojo on the other site. Xojo is becoming slower and slower as longer it is used and it starts to make problems for example with copy paste. On MAC you won’t see that kind of problems at all. So there is one advice: working on xojo makes a MAC affordable in every case. There is no real good chance of using it under Linux and Windows.
Sheesh… all I meant to do was make a quick observation of a tool I was considering, not start a holy war.
Indeed, my definition is more: EDIT (not important on what), COMPILE can be done perfectly anywhere in the build chain (also not important), but DEBUG must be possible on a real device and not an emulator as this is for me the most critical part. B4X can do that for me on its platforms (even the EDIT part for the layouts with the Bridge tools, what is just awesome!), Xojo can not give me that (for you also not the DEBUG part for the mobile platforms). So it is a matter of personal priorities.
No war at all! I think all of this is very civil and informative. I love that we can here give our personal opinions (with passion, if needed) on all kind of cross platform tools without being policed. I value everyone’s opinion as I can maybe learn from someone else’s experience.
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Hair splitting does that 
I guess it won’t be sooo big right now. I do expect Flutter Web going to the stable channel (Web more on par with Mobile), and the Desktop Windows and Linux leaving Alpha on dev channel and going to the Beta channel with macOS, and stable after the 3rd quarter. So they could be iOS, Android, Web, Windows and macOS before Microsoft release their less powerful MAUI .Net UI that misses Linux; Linux that Flutter have full support.
Flutter is no alternative to JavaScript /gluon / vaadin cause tools have to be stable and not beta for production.
Duh. Just wait.
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Last time I was waiting it was for a stable and reliable xojo. I am still waiting gor
We’re not talking about Xojo. And I do follow the sources of what we are talking about.
Things still tend to be “I will believe it when I see it ship”
Betas can be fun but things have to ship
That big companies are backing these sorts of efforts is good to see
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Flutter works in modules, 2 of them are stable iOS and Android (shipped). Web is shipped, in a Xojo level (beta), and we expect it going to the stable channel next month. The rest will become Xojo like for few months.
First: yes we talk about flutter and not xojo, second: beta is beta and not really not production. For shire the concepts are good but also for sure: it has no guarantee of consistency and continuity comparable to java for example.
Thorsten; First: You have no idea about what you’re talking about. Second: You have no idea about what you’re talking about.
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absolutely
NOT trying to build MY production system on someone else’ beta code base 
While flutter & dart have made strides the places I care about arent, in their eyes, production yet
Its moving - and it may get there
When it does I will be interested
Lets just say that given what I know about @thorstenstueker business I would say he has at least as much clue as anyone - possibly more 