Mac by elf has tons of them in MacOS used for years and always refitted to the actual UI. So what? I guess, you never tried. And you think that you sell cause of your UI??? I guess that’s a believing but not a truths.
That’s not a number I share, but I made my “real” job’s entire annual salary in Q4 2023, so I’d say I’m satisfied. More satisfied than I would be having to use at Mac app using Segoe as its font.
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I have to pay salary for too much people to think even for Xojo or it’s similars. There is no chance to get the Jobs done in an acceptable time at all. No.Chance. And there is no way for me to get the regulatory conditions fitted we have to respect in all our developments, for medical, for avionic and for military use. So I guess it is another league of programming. Possibly I have no chance for the great Xojo. I know that I had it for one Customer. And that I paid much money to get rid of it while re developing was needed directly at the day of release. So maybe I have another view on the reality. Or another reality.
By the way, even after the “speeding up” of Xojo it is decades slower than Java is in all operations with Databases, Files and Strings. I tried that out to be secure that it is not an error of mine. Nope. Xojo is still blaming slow. That is nothing you can write state of the art Software with. Even if the UI would be the best of planet. Too slow. Means: one testfile with 35000 rows of Data. Java loading and displaying in a Tableview (JTable) costs 3.2 seconds. With Xojo? Good question, more than 25 seconds. That’s not good at all. It is simply not state of the art. It is old rugged Software which is not able to fullfill todays needs.
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The pissing match doesnt need to persist
You both have opinions about what works for you and what doesnt & why
Agree to disagree about things & move on ?
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I agree that it makes no sense. There is no way to write really state of the art software with Xojo. Show me one Software which makes a revenue of let me say 500k per year written in Xojo. one. I have three packages making a bit more than this. So it is fair to ask that. Have all a nice evening.
Xojo itself (although it is an amalgamation of Xojo, C++, etc)
I have wild guesses at several others that probably do but I dont want to stick my neck too far out
There are some, like PackR, which I cant guess at revenue but it has millions of downloads
(https://packr.app)
But in the real world, 99% of end user dont care. Most dont even notice “it is not real mac”
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The crappification of macOS UI’s is hardly the result of just certain development tools like Electron
Users have become used to non-standard UI’s because of those tools & the apps that promote them
However, as a developer, that doesn’t mean you can just NOT care and ship whatever
And there can be side effects like a lack of integration with OS services like accessibility, keychain, iCloud, etc
I use a couple Java apps and they both look VERY non-standard and neither uses keychain to store my passwords - they have their own “secure” key storage for that
However they are both VERY functional & useful so I put up with the non-standard UI
Doesnt mean I LIKE the non-standard UI - just that I can bear with it
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A good part of the mac users are the for the “mac is for creators…” and most of the tools for creators are non-standard UI’s. All this users will be very confortable with this flat UI.
A lot of developers can see that the function comes before the “pretty UI” Delivering a toll that makes a good job is what the user cares, a lack of a shadow or an animation, not really.
Sure, you mind because you are in the tiny percentage that knows the difference. Most end users dont know, dont care and in many cases, preffer the flat non-standard UI of the trend apps.
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Interestingly, I have no problem with apps like Discord and Slack because they aren’t pretending to look Mac native. They have their own visual identity. What bugs me most is when apps try to fake the native look. I’d rather it be different and unique than wrong.
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Keychain runs with java and we use it for a couple of applications for a long time. For sure it is no problem.
Designing an App for Mac makes it affordable that you also follow the design rules for mac. If not you may have a not nice UI.
And when ever I want to I can also use a flat UI like for example Jetbrains is using it. No problem. And yes, in my eyes that looks acceptable. Users are not buying a 50k application for a macos look and feel but for the right functionality. That’s fact. Nobody asked me in the long time I am programming commercial for native look and feel. They are asking for functionality. That has nothing to do with the UI Design. But with the usability of the UI. And native UI makes not automatically a good usability for an application. That’s a fun fact. While people believe that this will be so. No. Sorry. Exactly that kind of discussion is a not needed waste of time. Cause the most commercial apps are taking no care of it while running on many platforms. And not only on the holy mac. And that exactly is the fundamental reason why it is not important.
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This certainly USED to be very much the case
Non-native CAN be a reason for a lack of function
Try using an assistive device with a non-native UI on a Mac (like a screen reader)
There’s a reason the Accessibility panel in System Settings is one of the largest ones
The API surface for this is HUGE
IF that happens to be of concern to you then its a big deal
Yes I like an app that does what its designed to do
but when it follows non-standard conventions that are inconsistent with the platform its … jarring
Menu items arent placed where I expect, keyboard short cuts are wrong, and many other things that should “just work” are wrong
THATS very noticeable regardless of how well the app functions
This is a very sweeping generalization without much to substantiate it
Kind of like saying “Most users wont ever use …”
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What I said was the ones I use do not do this - not that it cannot be done
And its … annoying that they dont
Which I consider to be particularly ugly even on a Mac
It may if you need to design for markets that need to cater to assist devices
Which I suspect your markets dont
But thats not EVERY market or developer
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Apple themselves have done a bang up job of shitting all over the HIG. So I wouldn’t solely blame 3rd party developers.
I will say this, the entire purpose of the HIG is to make it unified, helping customers understand how one thing works in one app, is consistent with other apps.
You are judged on experience. Customers are sometimes not even aware that they are keeping track of everything you do that’s different or wrong or frustrating, but they do. It can be balanced out by how well your app does the main job, but even then, these little paper cuts can still outweigh the actual usefulness of your product.
If customers say your product is fine, useful or acceptable, your product is mediocre and at risk of being replaced. To retain customers, you need customers to love your product, so that they don’t even consider the alternative.
Right now, these very people I’m talking about, feel trapped by Xojo, they’re not happy to be there, but they don’t see a viable alternative.
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Nobody is trapped to Xojo. The only thing they have to consider: writing their App in C++ with QT is the way to have the native UI kit on Windows, Linux and MacOS. There is no dicussion around: that IS native and WORKS native.More complex? Yes, for sure. Better? Yes, also for sure. Drag and Drop UI? Yes, for sure. Open Source? Yes, when dynamic linked nd not directly implemented in nearly all cases.
With QT you can build native Apps for all platforms even RTOS and all forms of embedded Hardware, mobile and the Web.
If somebody wants a native UI App from which reason ever (and yes, we have one to use the assistance modes of the OS for blind people and the Brail interface) then the native UI is the most common. We use it for those kind of things. Then is C++ with QT the language.
Is it an alternative for Xojo? Definitely yes for everybody with the need of XPLAT. Is it an alternative for the Xojo programmers? I guess no while most of them don’t want semicolon and curly braces…ahhh yes. Sounds a bit weird? For me yes. But never mind. That would be the native and reliable solution in this case. All others: use C# for Windows and Swift for MacOS. Other chances? Nope. No chance. Why? While Xojo is a critical problem for Software vendors in production.
Simple, isn’t it?
Xojo makes it hard to access documentation, developers have to spend extra time on that:
https://forum.xojo.com/t/dash-docset-for-xojo-2023r4/78856
Xcode has it all embedded and even provides the means for writeing your own documentation along with code.
Like Java, C++ also have. That is important while I can get the docs for example for a command while programming. That helps to have less debugging stresses. Xojo ignored that since 20 years. Netbeans for example has exactly that since around 19 years. It is nothing new. Also Code completion is a miracle.
Yes.
What made people to continue using a software ? They are capable of doing things.
One step at a time.
When you cannot even understand an IDE (from others in the market), you’re feeling down.
All you need are easy to use samples that gives them some joy, show them a life elsewhere from Xojo exists and they can follow this road.
As Sam wrote, things can go nice, not only for some, but for many once basic needs are provided.
In the beginning, it will be a set of “How do I… ?”, then “Where to go to get more real help… ?”, etc.
These people have strong bases to use another development environment. They know what variables and properties are ! 
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It’s not just the emotional toll.
Geoff saves money on NOT fixing bugs, not ironing out API 2 mess, and trashing Web 1.0.
But Geoff’s savings end up costing the customers a multiplier of expenses.
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The trouble, it is like a lot of companies at the moment, who’re looking to boost profits by saving money. It has a long term detrimental effect and some cases, does the complete opposite of what they want.
Take Apple for instance, keeping the 2020 MacBook Air at $1,000. The cost to make these machines has decreased, but Apple hasn’t lowered the price. The replacement 2022 MacBook Air was a more expensive model. Yet, the 2020 MacBook Air has remained their #1 selling Mac.
However Apple’s unit shipment and profits dropped last year, despite launching a 15" MacBook Air and 2 x 14" MacBook Pros, and a 16" MacBook Pro.
Why? Because they’re trying to boost profits from their most popular model, by not updating it. Making Apple’s cheapest MacBook Air, poor value. Would you pay full price for a 3 year old car? A 3 year TV, fridge, phone… etc etc
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