Flutter Desktop - All 3 platforms are now ALPHA

Neither does Xojo IMO. Back in the days when it could make a single .exe, they could. Now, not only your code is compiled but you need a whole bunch of external .dlls to make it work on Windows. I consider this ‘their’ runtime.

The one in Xojo has some major problems, it is best not to even mention that one. There is a thing like it ‘works’ and it is ‘workable’.

Nope, Xojo can’t anymore either: see https://forum.xojo.com/t/macos-64-bit-build-on-windows/57341

I guess March 2023 would be a more reasonable target, no? :wink:

‘a lot’ is a bit of a stretch… The counter arguments (debugging, code completion, …) you make are a lot further up my list. And foremost stability is a ‘must-have’ for me as a professional programmer. Something Xojo hasn’t been for a decade.

So (together with @Ivan’s remark), as far as I see it, Xojo doesn’t make the cut either in your criteria.

It is clear that now that the big boys are jumping on the cross platform train, Xojo will have a hard time keeping up/chasing after (they are already way behind on the mobile platforms). And with their ‘bug’ track record, they are more and more pushed into the Toy Language category that many professional programmers will never even consider.

It is a tough choice to make indeed. When my brother and I had a company back in the day, we had investors coming over the floor all the time. But they always wanted 34% of the shares or more. Although my brother and me still had the majority (66%), we had the same concern that we wouldn’t be our ‘own boss’ and do the things we liked.

In retrospect, we probably should’ve done it. Although we were able to sell the company later on for a good price, I always think ‘what if?’. The suggested investments could’ve opened up so many doors and opportunities that would’ve allowed us to grow much bigger.
But we were young and wanted to take on the world on our own… :grin:

I too will definitely keep an eye on Flutter/.NET6 as this is a very interesting turn in cross platform world.

This: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/deploying/single-file

Flutter creates .exe with few companion dlls, zip it, unzip them anywhere, and run. By “dependencies” I understand you were criticizing the old DotNet that needed having the proper framework previously installed in the machine, like Java needs the JRE.

This exact one you see here for Mac, works there:

Your original question was “having a designer” not “having an integrated designer”, but I’m ok if that is not enough for you.

The rest of your arguments are not important to me. Just a Xojo defense. My argument had zero Xojo references in it. I was just answering your questions. But again, I’m ok with Xojo defenses, not a fanboy of any party.

The Java JRE can also be embedded in the package (so running without installing Java)

The full JRE or just the pieces used by your program? That’s one difference. Last time I checked, JRE was a huge monolithic thing.

The 1-Click B4J Packager result is about 50MB in size, which is in the range of a Xojo App. It includes only what is used, next to an .exe



Here Erel did it for a Mac App (35MB)

Just click and run, or will see a JRE install at first run? If so, it evolved. JRE was a mess in the past (As DotNet).

No install at all.

Neither does Xojo IMO. Back in the days when it could make a single .exe, they could. Now, not only your code is compiled but you need a whole bunch of external .dlls to make it work on Windows. I consider this ‘their’ runtime.
Not at all
This is MS C runtimes as of late
And you have always with MS app had options about how to deply
Put DLL’s next to the EXE (got check out an office install) or install them

The old "single file exe’s were admittedly a hack that happened to work but somewhere in archives Aaron explains why they could not do that any more
Static linking of plugins wont work for myriad reasons

Single file exe’s for java are … interesting - GraalVM for instance is one that wraps the JVM and you code into a package that can run

That’s great. Now my argument against Java is just hating the language.

Indeed. There a quite some misconceptions about java.

But God, I loved it!

And with B4X, that one can go in the bin too as its language is a VB-like one just as Xojos! :laughing:

Good arguments. But I intend to follow the trends with large companies backing the tool sets.

Agreed, was just pointing out misconceptions, not trying to convince you. B4X is indeed a tool in the range of Xojo, not an industry standard. So let’s go back to topic ‘Flutter’ before they lock this topic and we’ll be banned… Oh right! This doesn’t happen here! :joy:

I’m the OP. I’ll invoke all my out of this world powers if such thing happens.

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The 2 might as well be written by diifferent companies (I think that might be the case - pretty sure VS for Mac was written by Xamarin). They are nothing like each other and VS for Windows is a completely different beast.

Xamarin is microsoft owned

MS engineers said it was clever but was extremely fragile esp when it came to shims for various patches etc
I’m sure I could find the post somewhere if I looked IF its that intriguing

powers ?

What about that article from a former Google insider that shows how Google often breaks stuff and has an almost “planned obsolescence” mentality (referenced here)? Could the same fate befall Flutter? Or is it more isolated like Android? And since Google isn’t producing this as a revenue source, isn’t it much more likely that they’ll either abandon it or just completely hose it someday?

I can’t afford to commit a lot of resources to learning/using a development system that could just “disappear” one day (note that I include Xojo in this category now, which is why I’m continuing to evaluate other options).

Like android? What are you talking about, andoid IS changing A LOT and to have a decent app, you have to be up to date with the changes, I think Flutter will be no exception.